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NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

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Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#41

Post by tombert »

jamiek88 wrote: post #38
tombert wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did the preemptive frames thing with Retroarch with Sonic the Hedgehog 3 a couple years ago, and I certainly convinced myself that I could tell a huge difference...and then I kept taking hits and dying just as much as I was without doing anything. It's entirely possible that someone who is better at video games can tell a huge difference (e.g. speedrunners and the like), but I'm afraid that I'm not good enough at m…

Interesting. I bought sonic origins as a palate cleanser the other day and I really feel like I can feel the latency. Sonic 1 was the only game me and my brother had for our mega drive so we know/knew everything there is to know!! Our speed runs were crazy. I don’t know if feeling the latency is just my age though, although I’m a semi pro SIM racer still and competitive in my late forties it’s a different kind of twi…

It's certainly worth trying the preemptive frames in RetroArch to see if you like it. Pretty low risk experiment.

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#42

Post by bigtex »

Just a shout out to Incredible Universe that was stupid/smart (you pick) for putting a Neo Geo on display to allow us to play arcade quality games for free. There would be a small line inside the Video Games sections of kids queueing up to play World Heroes.Fun memories.

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#43

Post by bigtex »

bityard wrote: post #14

NeoGeo! The system I will always remember as having fun fighting games in the arcade with a home console that only kids with "status symbol" money could afford...

Correct, but Incredible Universe had one on display for a very long time in the video games department and you could play World Heroes and other games for free! There would be a line of kids waiting to take a turn at World Heroes and I remember my friend and I playing the frisbee game. No need to goto the arcade when you could play these games for free.

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#44

Post by chongli »

tombert wrote: post #37
chongli wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since most retro games ran around 60fps, so about 17ms, That’s an oversimplification. Many retro game consoles don’t use a frame buffer. Instead they render the game state to the screen on the fly, one scanline at a time, and they’re able to process input mid-screen because they read the controller input many times faster than 60Hz (on the order of 2kHz). In practice, this means input lag is way below even 1ms. Light…

I'm not disputing that CRTs have lower input lag than LCDs or OLED. I was disputing the specific 50ms of lag claim that the parent post made; modern LCDs aren't that bad, and OLEDs are getting to a point that it's getting close to undetectable to human eyes. Even with horizontal interrupts that could be done between scanlines, there's still a limit to how fast we can actually perceive it (and frankly I'd be skeptical…

LCDs have a further issue that CRTs do not have: transition time. When an LCD pixel is displaying black and it is driven to white, the voltage change across the driving transistor happens a lot faster than the change in brightness of the pixel (caused by the mechanical twisting of the crystal). This has opened the space for a lot of display marketers to play games with latency numbers. Often they will quote numbers for transitions between 2 similar grey levels rather than between full black and full white, which takes a lot longer.

CRTs don't have this issue at all. The phosphor lights up extremely quickly to maximum brightness, even from fully black. It's a bit slower for the phosphor to "cool back down" to black, but it's much faster than an LCD unless you're using a specific high-persistence phosphor. Typical consumer CRT monitors had a persistence in the low microseconds, except the IBM 5151 monochrome monitor which was much longer to give a stable, flicker-free image for heavy office work.

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#45

Post by lamasery »

vunderba wrote: post #20
lamasery wrote: post #3

The main problem with playing older games in a modern media-hardware environment is the screen. You've got the problem that lots of them look worse, or even outright wrong (see: transparency-layering effects on things like Sonic the Hedgehog) on anything but a real CRT without some serious shader work. This is also true of older TV shows, to some extent, incidentally, especially if the only sources available are thin…

50ms latency would be extremely rough for games heavily reliant on frame perfect timing and lightning fast reflexes. I can't imagine playing Mike Tyson's Punchout for the NES with that kind of lag.

Punch-out and High Speed are my two test-games. If I can’t land the multiball shot in high speed at the first opportunity, and I can’t at least get past the teleporting tiger dude in Punch Out, it needs more work.

I’ve had initial attempts at an emulator set-up where I was losing lives on friggin’ Mario 1:1 though. Input and display latency so bad I was running into pits and stuff. Oof.

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#46

Post by moepstar »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #13
lamasery wrote: post #3

The main problem with playing older games in a modern media-hardware environment is the screen. You've got the problem that lots of them look worse, or even outright wrong (see: transparency-layering effects on things like Sonic the Hedgehog) on anything but a real CRT without some serious shader work. This is also true of older TV shows, to some extent, incidentally, especially if the only sources available are thin…

I now own a QD OLED that has a processing+display latency of 1.21 ms in 240hz, 1.83 in 60hz, and an unfortunate 7ms with 120hz + black frame insertion. Displays are no longer the problem anymore, we're back to CRT speeds again.

Do you mind sharing which make & model that'd be?

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#47

Post by chongli »

mrob wrote: post #32
chongli wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since most retro games ran around 60fps, so about 17ms, That’s an oversimplification. Many retro game consoles don’t use a frame buffer. Instead they render the game state to the screen on the fly, one scanline at a time, and they’re able to process input mid-screen because they read the controller input many times faster than 60Hz (on the order of 2kHz). In practice, this means input lag is way below even 1ms. Light…

>Lightgun games, for example, rely on very precise timing of the control input vs the CRT raster and simply do not work without a CRT. Perhaps the most famous light gun game of all time (Duck Hunt on the NES), does not rely on especially precise timing. It draws one white rectangle per frame over each duck when you pull the trigger and checks if the Zapper can see it. LCD latency will probably still break this, but i…

It draws one white rectangle per frame over each duck when you pull the trigger and checks if the Zapper can see it

Almost, but not quite. First it blanks the entire screen to solid black and uses that to calibrate the black level of the gun, then it draws a white rectangle over one duck on one frame, then a white rectangle over the other duck on the next frame.

The NES could use this information to determine where the gun was pointing by firing an interrupt at the exact moment when the zapper’s photodiode reached a threshold brightness level above black, and then only register a hit if that occurred while the game was drawing the white rectangle. I think in reality the game didn’t care that much about the timing, only that a rising edge occurred after the fully black frame but before the return to a normal colour frame.

Either way, an LCD doesn’t work because it can’t transition full black to full white within a one frame window. It sometimes works in the 2 duck mode, but it usually records a hit on the wrong duck. In any case, it requires black to white latency less than 16ms

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#48

Post by vunderba »

lamasery wrote: post #45
vunderba wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50ms latency would be extremely rough for games heavily reliant on frame perfect timing and lightning fast reflexes. I can't imagine playing Mike Tyson's Punchout for the NES with that kind of lag.

Punch-out and High Speed are my two test-games. If I can’t land the multiball shot in high speed at the first opportunity, and I can’t at least get past the teleporting tiger dude in Punch Out, it needs more work. I’ve had initial attempts at an emulator set-up where I was losing lives on friggin’ Mario 1:1 though. Input and display latency so bad I was running into pits and stuff. Oof.

Ouch. I was pretty good at that game as a kid. A few years back, one of my friends got one of those NES Classic Minis which has Punchout on it, so I was pretty jazzed to give it shot.

All of my timing was off, even Bald Bull was giving me a hard time. I was super pleased about that. Been a long time since I’ve felt that close to a gamer's equivalent of a redout thanks to the absurd amount of latency.

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#49

Post by pipes »

10729287 wrote: post #33
pipes wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha! The only multi player game my wife will play with me :)

Classic ! Try Magical Drop 2 or 3 and Money Idol Exchanger on the same system. There's a good chance she'll love them. They're a little bit more nervous tho, especially Money Idol !

Thanks :)

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#50

Post by doublerabbit »

fooqux wrote: post #2

FYI, SNK is owned by Mohammed bin Salman. I think I'll pass giving them a single cent.

"Jeffrey Epstein with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman in Riyadh between 2016 and 2017"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_bin_Salman

Sigh.

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