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US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

theguardian.com

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Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#311

Post by btreecat »

angry_octet wrote: post #269
Anamon wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From how I'm reading this, you're disagreeing with the parent but your quotes actually support what they wrote? Ethanol is not an antidote or "cure", it's more or less an attempt at dilution. There are other posts in this thread explaining why it's dangerous to believe that methanol poisoning can simply be counteracted with ethanol. >Bootleg brewers also sometimes add enough methanol to informally produced spirits to…

The US Govt did it during prohibition. It has been retconned by wacky homebrew fringe into a belief that all poisonings are due to adulteration, probably by Big Alcohol.

https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/0b9...

“As methanol is highly soluble in water, it will distil over more at the end of distillations when vapours are richer in water. That means, methanol will appear in almost equal concentration in almost all fractions of pot still distillation in reference to ethanol (i.e., as g/hL pa), until the very end where it accumulates in the so-called tailings fraction. However, even today many professional distillers believe that methanol concentrates preferably in the first fractions.”

Hernández, J. A., Wörner, S., & Riedl, K. (2021). Methanol Mitigation during Manufacturing of Fruit Spirits with Special Regard to Novel Coffee Cherry Spirits. Foods, 10(5), 994.

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#312

Post by reisse »

hilbert42 wrote: post #222
reisse wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I live in a country with both huge distillation culture and significantly non-zero number of methanol poisonings, and they never happen from home brewing. It's really hard to homebrew/distill methanol in a quantity enough to poison you in an otherwise ethanol solution (which acts as an antidote). It's so rare this thread is literally the first time I've heard about possibility of methanol poisoning from homebre…

Homebrewing isn't the issue per se. Methanol from fruit and stuff people normally ferment is pretty negligible. The problem happens when the spirit is sold and broken down/stretched to go futher by middlemen by adding cheaper MeOH. Unfortunately, that has happened enough times with people dying for it to be a problem. Seems some societies are more susceptible to these extremely dangerous ripoffs than others.

No one adds MeOH to homebrew. Bootlegging fake hard drinks is a completely different industry, which has zero relation to homebrewing.

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#313

Post by hilbert42 »

pessimizer wrote: post #299
hilbert42 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's the authority on that? Ethanol can be used as a temporary measure in methanol poisoning as it temporarily outcompetes methanol in the metabolic process. So it's only useful until proper medical help arrives when better alternatives such as fomepizole are administered. Even then there is no guarantee of success. Methanol is still metabolized to dangerous formaldehyde and formic acid by the liver's alcohol dehy…

> The logic of giving ethanol or fomepizole is to slow down the rate of production methanol's dangerous metabolic byproducts so less damage is done, nevertheless those dangerous metabolites are still produced. Who cares if dangerous metabolites are "still produced" when the danger has been limited? It's like claiming that blood transfusions don't help with shock because the patient still lost the same amount of blood…

"This is some weird-ass over-elaborate synonym for antidote."

I did not say or infer that ethanol should not be used in the treatment of methanol poisoning.

Giving ethanol to counteract methanol poisoning is not a simple fix like giving naloxone for a herion OD (which works effectively in minutes), it's more complicated and often involves multiple procedures such as hemodialysis and strict monitoring of ethanol levels (assuming one knows what that level should be, ipso facto, how much methanol was consumed and whether it was coconsumed with ethanol—facts often not readily available in an emergency department).

I suggest you read this, especially point 7 'Treatment': https://www.mdpi.com/2305-6304/12/12/924

The almost flippant assumption that ethanol is a fix all panacea for methanol poisoning by many who've posted here is just irresponsible. Fact is methanol OD is a major medical emergency and in no way should it be played down.

If I have to be the bringer of unwelcome truths then so be it. Shooting the messenger generally makes things worse.

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#314

Post by hilbert42 »

btreecat wrote: post #262
hilbert42 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's the authority on that? Ethanol can be used as a temporary measure in methanol poisoning as it temporarily outcompetes methanol in the metabolic process. So it's only useful until proper medical help arrives when better alternatives such as fomepizole are administered. Even then there is no guarantee of success. Methanol is still metabolized to dangerous formaldehyde and formic acid by the liver's alcohol dehy…

Where are the sources on your claims that ethenol is only a temporary or last ditch treatment?

Suggest you read the link in my reply to pessimizer.

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#315

Post by hilbert42 »

reisse wrote: post #312
hilbert42 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homebrewing isn't the issue per se. Methanol from fruit and stuff people normally ferment is pretty negligible. The problem happens when the spirit is sold and broken down/stretched to go futher by middlemen by adding cheaper MeOH. Unfortunately, that has happened enough times with people dying for it to be a problem. Seems some societies are more susceptible to these extremely dangerous ripoffs than others.

No one adds MeOH to homebrew. Bootlegging fake hard drinks is a completely different industry, which has zero relation to homebrewing.

I didn't say they did. If you think this ruling (if upheld) won't change things then you're kidding yourself

In Poland and other European countries where home distillation has been practiced for centuries nothing would happen but an instant cultural shift in the US with a major uptake in homebrewing certainly will. Ratbags and carpetbaggers will find ways to get in on the act and that's when the trouble will start.

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#316

Post by hilbert42 »

hilbert42 wrote: post #187
Mordisquitos wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you're saying it is deeply irresponsible. The way to deal with methanol poisoning is not "just ethanol", and you cannot "cure yourself" by drinking everclear. If you ever find out you have been drinking methanol by all means do drink safe spirits if you have immediate access to them (after throwing up what you can if you're still in time), but get medical help now . Ethanol will not cure you from methanol poi…

Exactly. I'm unsure why the myth that EtOH is a 'satisfactory' antidote for MeOH poisoning persists but unfortunately it does—even here on HN. I echoed the dangers of MeOH poisoning (in drink substitution, etc.) in my two posts and I've been downvoted several times without reason given. Such misunderstandings are why I'm an advocate for strong regulations that ensure commonly-available MeOH is always denatured.

"…EtOH is a 'satisfactory' antidote for MeOH poisoning…"

More info in link in my later reply to pessimizer.

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#317

Post by btreecat »

hilbert42 wrote: post #314
btreecat wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are the sources on your claims that ethenol is only a temporary or last ditch treatment?

Suggest you read the link in my reply to pessimizer .

If you don't want to provide a link and quote to the source, I'm going to treat it as it's unsourced.

If you want to claim the link and source are in another castle, I'm not playing games.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1306022/

> A 10% ethanol solution administered intravenously is a safe and effective antidote for severe methanol poisoning. Ethanol therapy is recommended when plasma methanol concentrations are higher than 20 mg per dl, when ingested doses are greater than 30 ml and when there is evidence of acidosis or visual abnormalities in cases of suspected methanol poisoning.

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#318

Post by btreecat »

angry_octet wrote: post #268
btreecat wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_toxicity "Methanol poisoning can be treated with fomepizole or ethanol.[19][22][23] Both drugs act to reduce the action of alcohol dehydrogenase on methanol by means of competitive inhibition. Ethanol, the active ingredient in alcoholic beverages, acts as a competitive inhibitor by more effectively binding and saturating the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme in the liver, thus blocki…

Alcohol is not an antidote! It only competes with enzyme binding to slow the production of fomic acid. Fomepizole costs thousands of dollars and is often unstocked for that reason in many countries, although I guess it will become stocked in the US now. Dialysis machines are also in short supply. One mass poisoning event would overwhelm available dialysis resources in a state. >>Bootleg brewers also sometimes add eno…

> A 10% ethanol solution administered intravenously is a safe and effective antidote for severe methanol poisoning. Ethanol therapy is recommended when plasma methanol concentrations are higher than 20 mg per dl, when ingested doses are greater than 30 ml and when there is evidence of acidosis or visual abnormalities in cases of suspected methanol poisoning.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1306022/

So I their words, it is an antitode, effective and recommended treatment.

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#319

Post by bluGill »

margalabargala wrote: post #305
bluGill wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I concluded from that, distillation cannot be used to concentrate alcohol. I'm on chemist, but I know enough to know that your article fails the sniff test - it is taking some facts but it is misapplying them.

If that's the conclusion you drew from that article, you either didn't read large sections of it or failed to understand it. Not sure how to help you but to suggest you try again. The principle is the same reason why when you distill at 180 degrees, you do not wind up with a distillate with zero water in it.

Sure you don't get zero water at 180 degrees - but you get less water which is why we can distill alcohol at all to remove water. Likewise you get more methanol in the early stages - that doesn't mean you get it all in the early stages, but you will get an elevated amount.

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#320

Post by bluGill »

btreecat wrote: post #308
bluGill wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some does. You don't need perfection of distilation to make a difference.

More is in the tails, neither is enough to be of concern.

In small batches. In very large batches there is enough to be a concern. Where the line is, is something I don't know but you better figure out if you are going to make concentrated alcohol.
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