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Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

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Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#281

Post by JuniperMesos »

taormina wrote: post #243
bsimpson wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Nevada, another state that people presume is all desert. (Really, it's all mountains.) The only part of Texas I've driven is between Austin and S Antonio. It was perhaps the least-beautiful wilderness I've driven through. It really did just feel like desert and billboards - like if Walmart was a highway. But I also presume Texas marketing itself as a less-regulated alternative (e.g. to California) is why it'…

Between Austin and San Antonio is so developed that it's considered by many to be a single "metro" area, DFW-style. There's very little not developed directly between the two.

I drove that way in 2024 for the solar eclipse. Some parts of that route struck me as a bit exurb-ish and spread-out, I wouldn't call it a single metro area, but there were definitely people living there. And it was way too green to be called a desert; I've driven through actual deserts in southern CA and nowhere that I saw in that part of Texas was anywhere near that dry (I guess you have to go further west to get to actual Texas desert, which we didn't do on that trip).

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#282

Post by valleyer »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #267
mediaman wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loudoun County in Virginia generates $1 billion in property tax revenues from data centers. It funds half of all of their expenditures. Can you imagine having half of your total municipal government budget being paid for by data centers? Their citizens pay much lower property tax rates, and get much better schooling and police. Henrico County (also VA) took $60 million in unexpected new revenues from data centers and…

> that they consume a lot of water based on a discredited book with elementary math errors. How exactly do you think they dissipate the heat of a continuous 100 MW or 1 GW power draw? I have no idea what book you're referring to but you can do the math yourself it's quite straightforward.

The book is "Empire of AI". This blog post explains it pretty well: https://blog.andymasley.com/p/empire-of-ai-is-wildly-mislead...

Basically, the author (of the book) compares a data center outside Santiago to usage of water by humans, erroneously imputing that the average human uses only 200 cc of water per day.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#283

Post by DrewADesign »

sershe wrote: post #238
DrewADesign wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. Data centers are a net negative wherever they are. Giant, employ far fewer people than a grocery store after they’re built, crank up electricity costs, use tons of water, air pollution if it’s self-powered, noise pollution (it’s really worth watching Benn Jordan’s video on infrasound,) ugly… the only local entities that win are the landowner and the municipality that collects taxes on them. Though I’ve seen so…

Doesn't this also apply to new housing? Strain on services per job created is probably even higher. The benefits are for someone currently not living here, just like data centers used for remote users. And if cheaper housing is available obnoxious poor people might move in. I think there should be a moratorium. Not in my backyard!

I’m not sure who you’d expect to sway equating data centers to east coast urban housing during a giant, sustained housing crisis, but your obviously disingenuous argument is completely ridiculous.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#284

Post by jandrewrogers »

ryandrake wrote: post #48
piker wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, sorry that wasn't intended as a slight to Texas. Texas just does have a lot of barren landscape where datacenters wouldn't offend as much. I modified it to make that clear. Also, energy is playing a role here.

Is that really the primary concern about datacenters? Their aesthetics? I thought the major problem with them was that they muscle in on valuable resources like water and electricity, consuming what would otherwise be used by people, and driving the prices up.

Data centers use a lot of electricity but negligible water.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#285

Post by fc417fc802 »

butvacuum wrote: post #264
fc417fc802 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't the whole story. At least some of these new datacenters are gigawatt class. That's multiple sq km of solar. Water usage is also an issue. A continuous 1 gigawatt is enough to boil off 1.3 million liters per hour which over 24 hours equates to very roughly 90k residential users. If it isn't boiled but is instead returned lukewarm it will require many times that amount due to how large the heat of vaporizati…

did you move the goal post, or erect a new one? either way- residential use is penny ante in terms of water usage. So much so that comparing data center use to residential use without including industrial, commercial, and irrigation can only be in bad faith. Particularly since usage reports typically present all the numbers in the same chart or grid.

The concern is resource usage. Water had been left out, so including it isn't shifting the goalposts given the context.

The comparison was intended for illustrative purposes. Residential usage provides something relatable and is the general standard for these sorts of discussions.

Even comparing to industrial most operations don't use anywhere near as much electricity or water. The new gigawatt class datacenters are in the same ballpark as aluminum smelters, but rather than melting metal they sink all that energy into water.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#286

Post by Acrobatic_Road »

harimau777 wrote: post #266
bdangubic wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data Centers would have made them sooooooo rich, very silly policies indeed, they’d be swimming in money

I can't tell if this is sarcasm? On the chance that it isn't, how would that make them rich? The profit from the data centers goes to the owner not to the people in the community or rest of the state.

There's this thing called taxes...

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#287

Post by trollbridge »

bombcar wrote: post #260
fc417fc802 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get their own unique third category as unlike industrial sites there's no hazardous chemicals and even the noise pollution is substantially different in nature. The old datacenters are analogous to office buildings that emit some unusual noise and consume large amounts of electricity. The new ones (ie gigawatt class) consume enough electricity for ~1 million households and at minimum enough water for 100k househ…

Where does the water go afterwards? Is it evaporated? Sewer?

Evaporated. Given how the water cycle works, it should be expected it will be precipitated back as rain.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#288

Post by [deleted] »

bombcar wrote: post #260
fc417fc802 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get their own unique third category as unlike industrial sites there's no hazardous chemicals and even the noise pollution is substantially different in nature. The old datacenters are analogous to office buildings that emit some unusual noise and consume large amounts of electricity. The new ones (ie gigawatt class) consume enough electricity for ~1 million households and at minimum enough water for 100k househ…

Where does the water go afterwards? Is it evaporated? Sewer?

[deleted]

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#289

Post by pj_mukh »

unclad5968 wrote: post #229
jeffbee wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As has been repeatedly demonstrated[1], it is the presence of new, large consumers that drives down the cost of bulk power by amortizing the infrastructure investments. Maine voters are, of course, notorious bozos in this field, having voted in a plebiscite in 2021 to cancel the link to Quebec Hydro, which was already substantially completed. 1: For example LBNL's latest banger: Factors influencing recent trends in r…

This is so ignorant it hurts. The same exact proposition was voted down in New Hampshire years earlier, because the transmission line goes straight through natural forests, to Massachusetts, and has little to do with the state other than chopping down a bunch of trees. Neither Maine nor New Hampshire have an extra $1 billion to waste on enhancing the grid mainly for the benefit of southern New England states. Neither…

"Neither Maine nor New Hampshire voters are "bozos" for voting it down. "

I mean yes, that is how the Tragedy of the Commons works. Everyone individually makes the optimal decision for themselves but in effect you've basically hamstrung green sources of energy around the country by being very smart for your own state.

The question is, should you be allowed to this.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#290

Post by fc417fc802 »

cloudfudge wrote: post #248
xphos wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consequence of saying they cannot choice to not have them. Is saying your requiring them to have them whether or not the people their want them. Its also a temporary moratorium. Maybe the industry should have been more responsible and not pasted so many externalities on to the public sector if they didnt want to face regulations. I think the highest parent comment basically hasn't engaged in any of the cost benef…

> The consequence of saying they cannot choice to not have them. Is saying your requiring them to have them whether or not the people their want them. Sorry, but this is nonsense. They are currently not banned in Maine, yet they do not have them. There is obviously no requirement to have them.

Being against a ban is equivalent to requiring that something be allowed. It might or might not end up happening, but either way it is permitted.
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