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Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

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Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#251

Post by DrewADesign »

rangestransform wrote: post #235
DrewADesign wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The city making money off of it doesn’t make the impact smaller. You can’t tax away the air pollution coming from a gas turbine running in a populated area.

The fact that they need to use gas turbines at all is a tragic condemnation of how the US can’t build shit at all. We should be consuming more (green) energy to make our lives better, and rushing toward diminishing returns on energy consumption. Instead, we have this unholy alliance of (usually right wing) NIMBYs and (usually left wing) degrowthers that make it much more convenient to use a gas turbine than build ren…

Yeah, but unfortunately, here we are, and there are the companies that want to build these things in completely inappropriate areas because it’s more convenient.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#252

Post by mcmcmc »

pojzon wrote: post #100
orenlindsey wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that with the rise of coding and debugging agents, the AI data centers provide (or will in the near future) even more benefit than a car factory, in terms of digital infrastructure. These technologies are just a lot more invisible so we don't realize how important they are.

Yet we read everyday that Agents generating astronomous amounts of slop and pointless projects are also straining global digital infrastructure. Which is also “invisible”. Using this technology to make advancements in healthcare is 1% of its usage. While 99% is garbage apps noone needs, memes, deep fake videos and porn. AI as a whole for now is a net negative for the world.

Don’t forget the portion that’s used for mass surveillance, scams, and other blackhat shenanigans. Or supercharged personalized advertising with dynamic pricing. And you can’t miss propaganda and dark money influence campaigns.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#253

Post by SamDc73 »

kube-system wrote: post #201
SamDc73 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, another way to put it: if you don't want factories, that's fine; just don't buy manufactured stuff .. the same with data centers, if you don't want data centers then don't go on the Internet because by doing so you're becoming part of the problem.

It isn't necessary to evenly distribute industry across the entire country out of pettiness. Maine doesn't tell Iowa they should grow their own lobsters, they simply trade them.

I don't know if I get you're points because lobster farms are tied to certain external factors in a way things like data centers aren’t.

but either way, the argument feels very NIMBY: it’s not ‘no housing,’ it’s ‘just not here.’

so when someone say ‘let someone else host them,’ it really comes across as: I want the internet, just let other communities pay the environmental cost.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#254

Post by BeetleB »

order-matters wrote: post #210
scoofy wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously the solution is to tax them instead of ban them so they end up dispersing income to the surrounding areas. The entire point though is that they won't get built where they are taxed, and eventually, through regulatory capture or governance capture, they'll get built without having to compensate for their exteralities. The cynicism of residents is reasonable. They've have to be highly educated to actually und…

>The entire point though is that they won't get built where they are taxed I dont think this is entirely true. Maybe not the first wave of data centers, but there are a lot of factors that go into the cost calc and its possible that it would still be worth it to build them even if taxed.

He's not saying it's economically unfeasible to build where taxed. He's saying they'll simply build elsewhere where they won't be taxed.

About a decade ago, a bunch of data center companies got fantastic deals with my city (low/no tax). People are pretty upset about it. A few years in there was a report on how many people they employeed. I think combined it was under 10 who lived in the area.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#255

Post by fc417fc802 »

0cf8612b2e1e wrote: post #213
TheTaytay wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep wondering this too. It feels like such a self fulfilling prophecy: don’t build new power plants. Don’t build nuclear. Get mad when the grid can’t keep up…it’s defeatist and anti-growth-of-any-sort through a different lens.

To be fair, for decades, electricity consumption has been mostly flat. There has not been a need to massively ramp up new generation or distribution. It is only in the last few years that such mega consumers have come online that is requiring new development at a frantic pace.

Not true. Electric vehicles have been threatening to collapse residential grids for quite a few years now. The US hasn't been making the necessary infrastructure investments for a long time. See PG&E for example.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#256

Post by WarmWash »

unethical_ban wrote: post #188
WarmWash wrote: post #58

If it meant that residents couldn't use AI, then the bill would be certainly dead. Given that, the bill is just for show, and not actually serious.

I shouldn't drive a car if I don't want an oil derrick in my backyard.

Don't worry, atmospheric warming will do you in the same.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#257

Post by lizknope »

bsimpson wrote: post #89
seniorThrowaway wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know why people think Texas doesn't have natural beauty. It's a huge state.

I'm from Nevada, another state that people presume is all desert. (Really, it's all mountains.) The only part of Texas I've driven is between Austin and S Antonio. It was perhaps the least-beautiful wilderness I've driven through. It really did just feel like desert and billboards - like if Walmart was a highway. But I also presume Texas marketing itself as a less-regulated alternative (e.g. to California) is why it'…

Most people never bother to look at a map.

It takes 2 seconds to look at google satellite view of the area and see lots of desert with strips of green

https://maps.app.goo.gl/R8HuWBi66548Jq5BA

Of course you already know this but for everyone else it is called the Basin and Range province. You have desert areas and then a mountain range with much higher elevation with cooler temperatures and more precipitation which means trees and forests and green in color

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basin_and_Range_Province

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#258

Post by Acrobatic_Road »

gib444 wrote: post #5

Will a US state get the same kind of criticism a European country gets about push-back against big tech? Maine will go bankrupt? Maine will turn into a barren backwater? There will be no jobs?

With low fertility and little reason for anyone to move there the northeast will turn into a barren backwater.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#259

Post by seandhi »

bsimpson wrote: post #89
seniorThrowaway wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know why people think Texas doesn't have natural beauty. It's a huge state.

I'm from Nevada, another state that people presume is all desert. (Really, it's all mountains.) The only part of Texas I've driven is between Austin and S Antonio. It was perhaps the least-beautiful wilderness I've driven through. It really did just feel like desert and billboards - like if Walmart was a highway. But I also presume Texas marketing itself as a less-regulated alternative (e.g. to California) is why it'…

Ah yes, the vast, undeveloped wilderness of I-35 between Austin and San Antonio. Totally just unoccupied desert.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#260

Post by bombcar »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #205
bombcar wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost anything can be mitigated at some cost - but it has to be determined what those mitigations are, and then demand them. Many municipalities are unequipped to deal with a "datacenter" because on paper it is the same as an office building (that draws a lot of power), where it should be treated like an industrial site (rail yard, factory).

They get their own unique third category as unlike industrial sites there's no hazardous chemicals and even the noise pollution is substantially different in nature. The old datacenters are analogous to office buildings that emit some unusual noise and consume large amounts of electricity. The new ones (ie gigawatt class) consume enough electricity for ~1 million households and at minimum enough water for 100k househ…

Where does the water go afterwards? Is it evaporated? Sewer?
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