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Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

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Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#141

Post by tadfisher »

ch4s3 wrote: post #114
fr4nkr wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major data centers being built for AI are much more energy-hungry than car manufacturing, and they're being built at a pace that the US energy grid simply cannot accommodate in the short term... or quite possibly even the long term, considering the US's extreme aversion to expanding nuclear power. Also, you can call it Luddism if you want, but a car factory is going to bring a lot more net benefit to the average…

> AI are much more energy-hungry than car manufacturing This is not even remotely true[1]. Large auto plants use on the order of 200–250 megawatts of power, which is either on par with a data center or slightly more than a data center depending on the size and how cooling is handled. [1] https://www.energystar.gov/sites/default/files/tools/Industr...

New AI data center builds are being specified in gigawatts, my friend.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#142

Post by DrewADesign »

physhster wrote: post #117
slabity wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> modern factories are often highly automated and also don't provide too many local jobs. The factories in Maine employ thousands of people. Bath Iron Works alone has over 7k employees. The Lewiston datacenter that was planned to be built was expected to employ less than 30.

Less than 30 makes no sense. It's easily in the hundred if you account for shifts and the specialized jobs required.

From the Maine Monitor:

[…]the data center would have employed only about 30 workers, the city estimated.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#143

Post by Dylan16807 »

didgetmaster wrote: post #28

How long until the AI companies start charging more to people who use AI services, but live in areas that do things like this? NIMBY causes energy prices to go up in areas that won't allow drilling, refining, nuclear or nat gas development, or power lines. When will the same happen for things like AI services?

The most expensive AI stuff is the least latency sensitive. A coding agent could be on a different continent and you wouldn't really notice.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#144

Post by myhf »

lbarrow wrote: post #17

For people who support this kind of ban, I'd ask if you would support a similar ban on new factories for, say, car parts. Like data centers, factories use a lot of power -- which drives up electricity bills -- and their construction can have local environmental impacts. Data centers have a reputation for not providing too many local jobs, but modern factories are often highly automated and also don't provide too many…

Car parts are tangible. Even if the product doesn't stay onshore forever, it has to enrich people onshore in order to move.

All the output of a datacenter effectively goes offshore immediately.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#145

Post by marcosdumay »

DrewADesign wrote: post #107
slabity wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> modern factories are often highly automated and also don't provide too many local jobs. The factories in Maine employ thousands of people. Bath Iron Works alone has over 7k employees. The Lewiston datacenter that was planned to be built was expected to employ less than 30.

Bingo. Data centers are a net negative wherever they are. Giant, employ far fewer people than a grocery store after they’re built, crank up electricity costs, use tons of water, air pollution if it’s self-powered, noise pollution (it’s really worth watching Benn Jordan’s video on infrasound,) ugly… the only local entities that win are the landowner and the municipality that collects taxes on them. Though I’ve seen so…

> Data centers are a net negative wherever they are.

They really shouldn't be.

There is a need for them and they aren't inherently damaging. There's no reason they can't be placed under some environmental regulations that cancel all their negatives, at least on some places. And they would still pay taxes.

But no, datacenter owners are using their connections to remove any regulation instead.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#146

Post by bombcar »

bitexploder wrote: post #139
DrewADesign wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. Data centers are a net negative wherever they are. Giant, employ far fewer people than a grocery store after they’re built, crank up electricity costs, use tons of water, air pollution if it’s self-powered, noise pollution (it’s really worth watching Benn Jordan’s video on infrasound,) ugly… the only local entities that win are the landowner and the municipality that collects taxes on them. Though I’ve seen so…

Perhaps they are simply not taxed enough to benefit the community. If the local municipality is bearing a lot of these hidden costs, then perhaps the taxes need to be higher and directed at efforts that mitigate the worst of the problems. Water management solutions, air pollution management. Are there ways to mitigate the noise pollution? It seems like they should be taxed /more/ to help offset the negatives. There i…

Almost anything can be mitigated at some cost - but it has to be determined what those mitigations are, and then demand them.

Many municipalities are unequipped to deal with a "datacenter" because on paper it is the same as an office building (that draws a lot of power), where it should be treated like an industrial site (rail yard, factory).

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#147

Post by sQL_inject »

lbarrow wrote: post #17

For people who support this kind of ban, I'd ask if you would support a similar ban on new factories for, say, car parts. Like data centers, factories use a lot of power -- which drives up electricity bills -- and their construction can have local environmental impacts. Data centers have a reputation for not providing too many local jobs, but modern factories are often highly automated and also don't provide too many…

It's self-selecting. Pro-growth states will flourish, attract intellectual talent. Support auxiliary careers, and grow their educational institutions.

The rest will fallow.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#149

Post by DrewADesign »

bitexploder wrote: post #139
DrewADesign wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. Data centers are a net negative wherever they are. Giant, employ far fewer people than a grocery store after they’re built, crank up electricity costs, use tons of water, air pollution if it’s self-powered, noise pollution (it’s really worth watching Benn Jordan’s video on infrasound,) ugly… the only local entities that win are the landowner and the municipality that collects taxes on them. Though I’ve seen so…

Perhaps they are simply not taxed enough to benefit the community. If the local municipality is bearing a lot of these hidden costs, then perhaps the taxes need to be higher and directed at efforts that mitigate the worst of the problems. Water management solutions, air pollution management. Are there ways to mitigate the noise pollution? It seems like they should be taxed /more/ to help offset the negatives. There i…

The city making money off of it doesn’t make the impact smaller. You can’t tax away the air pollution coming from a gas turbine running in a populated area.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#150

Post by mediaman »

bigfatkitten wrote: post #98
fr4nkr wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major data centers being built for AI are much more energy-hungry than car manufacturing, and they're being built at a pace that the US energy grid simply cannot accommodate in the short term... or quite possibly even the long term, considering the US's extreme aversion to expanding nuclear power. Also, you can call it Luddism if you want, but a car factory is going to bring a lot more net benefit to the average…

And a data centre brings absolutely no economic benefit whatsoever to its local community, unlike something like an auto plant that creates entirely new supporting industries to support it and its employees.

Loudoun County in Virginia generates $1 billion in property tax revenues from data centers.

It funds half of all of their expenditures.

Can you imagine having half of your total municipal government budget being paid for by data centers?

Their citizens pay much lower property tax rates, and get much better schooling and police.

Henrico County (also VA) took $60 million in unexpected new revenues from data centers and created an affordable housing trust that is subsidizing low-cost housing.

Although these counties are figuring it out, it's an incredible failure in imagination for many of these liberals in other states to look at an immense source of new funding that could support schools, housing and health and just spurn it because they heard from a friend of a friend that they consume a lot of water based on a discredited book with elementary math errors.

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