Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Emperor penguin and Antarctic fur seal now endangered

iucn.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 66 posts

Re: Emperor penguin and Antarctic fur seal now endangered

#41

Post by DarkmSparks »

darth_avocado wrote: post #40
DarkmSparks wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, some of us haven't forgotten https://www.eesi.org/articles/view/record-maximum-sea-ice-in... https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=3613794165505253&set=gm...

Glad you still remember of random yearly increase in ice from 2014 and a photo of a random newspaper clipping from 1974 shared on Facebook. Meanwhile long term trends in Antarctic and arctic ice cover: https://climate.copernicus.eu/climate-indicators/ice-sheets#...

The implicit question was whether you think we should endeavour to return to an ice or not.

Personally I'm on the not side.

And also

The only people I have seen deny climate change are the AGW idiots who think the climate has ever been stable, and who demand global action to try to put it into some sort of climatic stasis.

The rest of us have always accepted the SCIENTIFIC FACTS that:

(a) The Earth's climate has always changed and always will.

(b) The Earth's climate is EXTREMELY COMPLEX and cannot currently be accurately modeled in a computer.

(c) While humans, like EVERYTHING ELSE, have SOME effects on climate, there are plenty of other causes of change including many we probably do not know/understand. Some of these other sources, like the sun, have a far greater impact than humans.

(d) The Earth has been both significantly hotter and extremely cold many times in the past before there were enough humans to have had ANY effect on any of those previously very extreme changes.

We ALSO embrace things like the laws of economics, the record of human history, and accept basic human nature - so we:

(a) Believe humans will continue to advance technologically and thus we as a species become better able to deal with climate change with every passing decade, making it retrograde to go nuts trying to offset it now - even if we could, and if we could afford it, and if its happening.

(b) Know that far more people are dying today from other sources than from climate, and that reducing some of the deaths and suffering of people TODAY is achieved using some of those fossil fuels people like you want eliminated or made too expensive because YOU claim it will save some future persons from some imagined future horror.

(c) WE actually believe a pet theory should be PROVEN before we implement policies that have a negative impact on the lives of millions of people in the name of "solving" the supposed problem. In fact, we'd like to not only see the problem PROVEN to exist, but we also want to see that the proposed solution will actually work, will be the most cost-effective option, and will have the least impact upon the lives and liberty of the people who are alive today.

Re: Emperor penguin and Antarctic fur seal now endangered

#43

Post by foxyv »

Qem wrote: post #10
alsetmusic wrote: post #2

It’s surprising how much this headline affects me. Who doesn’t like penguins? And seals are nice, but penguins are so likeable. We’ve really ruined everything.

I get a bit of this looming feeling every time there is discussion about the Awk programming language, because it reminds me we already got the closest thing to a penguin in the nothern hemisphere extinct by the XIX century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_auk Hope this time around we do a better job of avoiding complete doom for these species.

> While you abide on this island you are in the constant practice of horrid cruelties for you not only skin them Alive, but you burn them Alive also to cook their Bodies with. You take a kettle with you into which you put a Penguin or two, you kindle a fire under it, and this fire is absolutely made of the unfortunate Penguins themselves. Their bodies being oily soon produce a Flame; there is no wood on the island.

Oh dear god.

Re: Emperor penguin and Antarctic fur seal now endangered

#44

Post by dghlsakjg »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #12

It’s terrible that the side effect of humans creating a world of wealth, safety and comfort (for all?) is that we risk destroying the very comfort we create - but it is also awesome that we have sufficient wealth to allow people to study these birds full time, enough wealth to build communication systems that tell random strangers about the threat they are under and hopefully enough time to correct the problem. I saw…

Why?

Many people do not see climate change as certain. Those same people have become convinced that all solutions to climate change involve their lives getting worse. Finally, for those who accept the science of climate change, the “what to do” is not obvious.

In short: not everyone agrees it is a problem. Those that do, don’t agree on the mechanics of the solution.

Re: Emperor penguin and Antarctic fur seal now endangered

#45

Post by dghlsakjg »

DarkmSparks wrote: post #41
darth_avocado wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad you still remember of random yearly increase in ice from 2014 and a photo of a random newspaper clipping from 1974 shared on Facebook. Meanwhile long term trends in Antarctic and arctic ice cover: https://climate.copernicus.eu/climate-indicators/ice-sheets#...

The implicit question was whether you think we should endeavour to return to an ice or not. Personally I'm on the not side. And also The only people I have seen deny climate change are the AGW idiots who think the climate has ever been stable, and who demand global action to try to put it into some sort of climatic stasis. The rest of us have always accepted the SCIENTIFIC FACTS that: (a) The Earth's climate has alwa…

Ignoring the extremely well worn points and distraction arguments you are hashing over, I’ll just address point C of your conclusions:

What proof would you accept? What are the goalposts. You have the standard counterpoints for every scientific argument, what is the point of trying to prove anything to someone who so adamantly doesn’t want to believe something? The people that actually work on this stuff are very sure that the greenhouse gas effect has been proven beyond a doubt. Thousands of studies, and billions of dollars have been spent and the huge majority of it points towards human caused climate change being real. People have been giving you the proof, and they have been giving you the solutions, but you demand more?

Fine, flip it around: why does the majority of evidence, expertise and smart money think that it is real? I need better proof of your “pet theory” that this is natural. As you say: “ WE actually believe a pet theory should be PROVEN…”

By definition: if human climate change hasn’t been proven or disproven, then the opposite idea of natural climate change is just as unproven, but has the added problem of being the chosen theory of people who mostly aren’t domain experts, but do believe that they will be made personally worse off in the short term by mitigation efforts.

Re: Emperor penguin and Antarctic fur seal now endangered

#46

Post by DarkmSparks »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #45
DarkmSparks wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implicit question was whether you think we should endeavour to return to an ice or not. Personally I'm on the not side. And also The only people I have seen deny climate change are the AGW idiots who think the climate has ever been stable, and who demand global action to try to put it into some sort of climatic stasis. The rest of us have always accepted the SCIENTIFIC FACTS that: (a) The Earth's climate has alwa…

Ignoring the extremely well worn points and distraction arguments you are hashing over, I’ll just address point C of your conclusions: What proof would you accept? What are the goalposts. You have the standard counterpoints for every scientific argument, what is the point of trying to prove anything to someone who so adamantly doesn’t want to believe something? The people that actually work on this stuff are very sur…

We have all the "proof" we need.

https://courses.ems.psu.edu/earth107/sites/earth107/files/Un...

We are due to enter another ice age, quite possibly in our lifetime. It has already been warmer longer than 2 of the past three warm periods. Quite possibly because of/thanks to AGW.

The oil has run out and now 2 miles of ice above new york is coming to a store near you.

Everything else is a distraction and propaganda.

But either way the Penguins will be fine.

Re: Emperor penguin and Antarctic fur seal now endangered

#47

Post by darth_avocado »

DarkmSparks wrote: post #46
dghlsakjg wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the extremely well worn points and distraction arguments you are hashing over, I’ll just address point C of your conclusions: What proof would you accept? What are the goalposts. You have the standard counterpoints for every scientific argument, what is the point of trying to prove anything to someone who so adamantly doesn’t want to believe something? The people that actually work on this stuff are very sur…

We have all the "proof" we need. https://courses.ems.psu.edu/earth107/sites/earth107/files/Un... We are due to enter another ice age, quite possibly in our lifetime. It has already been warmer longer than 2 of the past three warm periods. Quite possibly because of/thanks to AGW. The oil has run out and now 2 miles of ice above new york is coming to a store near you. Everything else is a distraction and propaganda. Bu…

So you’d rather believe that an ice age will come in our lifetime based on pretty much no evidence, but not that a declining penguin and seal population is beyond comprehension when you have numbers?

Great.

Re: Emperor penguin and Antarctic fur seal now endangered

#48

Post by DarkmSparks »

darth_avocado wrote: post #47
DarkmSparks wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have all the "proof" we need. https://courses.ems.psu.edu/earth107/sites/earth107/files/Un... We are due to enter another ice age, quite possibly in our lifetime. It has already been warmer longer than 2 of the past three warm periods. Quite possibly because of/thanks to AGW. The oil has run out and now 2 miles of ice above new york is coming to a store near you. Everything else is a distraction and propaganda. Bu…

So you’d rather believe that an ice age will come in our lifetime based on pretty much no evidence, but not that a declining penguin and seal population is beyond comprehension when you have numbers? Great.

What do you mean no evidence?

Do you understand sea levels rise when it is warmer and fall when it is colder?

In our very recent history, sea levels were 10 meters higher than they are now, that means in our very recent history it was significantly warmer than now. back when the nile was the green cradle of humanity.

From here the only way is colder - enough ice formed in the last few thousand years to drop the sea level by 10 meters, and even if it did warm and melt enough ice to rise the sea levels back to 10m higher than now, Penguins already survived it. We will to.

going back to 2 miles of ice above your fav city puts us back in the era passing bible stories verbally (but at least we know now they will use gaza and tel aviv instead of soddom and gommah).

Oh, and btw, the decline in the Penguin population is almost certainly China overfishing, do you have any idea how huge Antarctica is?

But don't let a few facts stand in the way of you believing what you read in the local tabloid.

Re: Emperor penguin and Antarctic fur seal now endangered

#49

Post by p-e-w »

Arodex wrote: post #17
p-e-w wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 15 years ago, I saw on the news in Europe that 8 students had been shot at some random high school in a random US state. Having been conditioned by my environment to perceive such events as important, I turned to my friend and said “Man, 8 students were shot at a high school in the States!” He asked me “What am I supposed to do with that information?” That response changed my life.

>“What am I supposed to do with that information?” ...Feel some sorrow? Think a bit about what could cause such a thing? Because one day, it may happen at your kid's school... And it may be your own kid. An absence of both empathy and curiosity aren't exactly a response to be proud of. An unconscious life. The kind that leads to, one day, spouting the standard response: "I never imagined it could happen to me".

Sorrow for people you don’t know? That’s a category error, and soundbites like that are a big part of the reason why many people now find it difficult to feel genuine sorrow.

Re: Emperor penguin and Antarctic fur seal now endangered

#50

Post by p-e-w »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #33
p-e-w wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 15 years ago, I saw on the news in Europe that 8 students had been shot at some random high school in a random US state. Having been conditioned by my environment to perceive such events as important, I turned to my friend and said “Man, 8 students were shot at a high school in the States!” He asked me “What am I supposed to do with that information?” That response changed my life.

How did it change your life?

It made me realize that “important events” are meaningless empathy theater, with the goal of desensitizing people until they care more about random folks dying on the other side of the planet than about the person sitting next to them on the bench.
Post reply on HN