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German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

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Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#71

Post by strbean »

KPGv2 wrote: post #48
usrusr wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if the police actually catches the accused and puts them in jail, is that kidnapping? Most verbs have far more semantics than just the most basic before/after state diff.

I have, admittedly, only been on the Internet for thirty-five years or so, but I seem to recall that a long time ago reading about people "doxxing" guys who posted pictures of them torturing cats and dogs. "Doxxing" certainly doesn't carry a negative connotation in that usage. Unless you live in a culture where torturing domesticated animals is a good thing. ANd I recall that, before that, hackers would doxx other ha…

There is still an inherent negative aspect to the "Don't Fuck with Cats" doxxing. Vigilantes publicly revealing the identity of (suspected) perpetrators can enable further vigilante action, and this can cause harm to innocent people if the identification was incorrect, or unwittingly impede law enforcement. And that's before considering whether vigilantism is inherently good or bad.

See the canonical example of this going wrong: the Reddit 'investigation' of the Boston Bomber, where someone was misidentified, doxxed, and their family was harassed.

Of course, law enforcement is capable of making the same mistakes. But ideally they have better safeguards, and victims of their negligence have much better recourse.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#72

Post by ptero »

KPGv2 wrote: post #48
usrusr wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if the police actually catches the accused and puts them in jail, is that kidnapping? Most verbs have far more semantics than just the most basic before/after state diff.

I have, admittedly, only been on the Internet for thirty-five years or so, but I seem to recall that a long time ago reading about people "doxxing" guys who posted pictures of them torturing cats and dogs. "Doxxing" certainly doesn't carry a negative connotation in that usage. Unless you live in a culture where torturing domesticated animals is a good thing. ANd I recall that, before that, hackers would doxx other ha…

> that seems like the exact same usage as here: tying a pseudonym to an IRL for purposes of law enforcement.

I disagree. Tying a pseudonym to an IRL persona for purposes of law enforcement is a part of an official investigation.

Doxxing is specifically non-government unmasking and dissemination of that tie for extrajudicial purposes, almost always for harassment. There is a world of difference between them and we should not fudge them together with terminology. My 2c.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#73

Post by krono »

moomin wrote: post #24
KingOfCoders wrote: post #20

Putting someone on a (most) wanted list is "doxing"? [Edit] "An international search is underway for Daniil Maksimovich SHCHUKIN on suspicion of numerous counts of gang-related and commercial extortion using ransomware to the detriment of commercial enterprises, public facilities, and institutions."

Yeah, I’m not okay with this. Doxxing is a term with an extremely negative connotation and is often done to people who, bluntly, weren’t hiding or doing anything wrong. The correct term for the same act here is either “accuse” or “unmask”.

So it is doxxing if the doxxed committed wrongdoings from the perspective of... the doxxer? Ideals, morality, alignment, goals and purpose are and have always been a static constant for all humankind. There is no pineapple pizza, it is a lie, for I don't like it, and therefore nobody else ever did either.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#74

Post by vpinkeroff »

krono wrote: post #73
moomin wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I’m not okay with this. Doxxing is a term with an extremely negative connotation and is often done to people who, bluntly, weren’t hiding or doing anything wrong. The correct term for the same act here is either “accuse” or “unmask”.

So it is doxxing if the doxxed committed wrongdoings from the perspective of... the doxxer? Ideals, morality, alignment, goals and purpose are and have always been a static constant for all humankind. There is no pineapple pizza, it is a lie, for I don't like it, and therefore nobody else ever did either.

You have understand that we're dealing with Morals™, if you're an enemy of the States, anything is on the table. Even some of the things the States is actively calling other countries out for, see Iran for example and how silent the EU, ICC, and NATO is when its "Daddy", as Rutte put it, commits atrocities.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#75

Post by diath »

ecshafer wrote: post #56
kgeist wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Found his record in Russia's official company registry. This is what he officially does as an entepreneur: 56.10 — Restaurant activities and food delivery services 47.23 — Retail sale of fish, crustaceans, and mollusks in specialized stores 47.25.12 — Retail sale of beer in specialized stores 47.25.2 — Retail sale of soft drinks in specialized stores 47.29.39 — Retail sale of other food products in specialized stores…

I find it entertaining that even as part of a Russian hacking gang, the real threat is the Russian tax authorities. Regardless of how you got the money, need to pay the taxes.

That's not specific to Russia, almost every country in the world requires you to report illegal income for tax purposes, including the US.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#76

Post by seanhunter »

flipped wrote: post #59
oytis wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running a ransomware gang is immoral. Catching someone running a ransomware gang is good. If publishing their name helps catch them, it's also good. Not sure where do you see the gap between legality and morality in this case

People often forget that Threat Actors (TA) are the ones keeping the infosec alive. They are doing a good job of scaring people into implementing actual security protocols and thereby improving everyone's security posture. The whole infosec would collapse without TAs, let's not forget that. They create jobs.

This is the “Broken Window” fallacy[1] which was explained by Bastiat.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#77

Post by pmarreck »

moomin wrote: post #24
KingOfCoders wrote: post #20

Putting someone on a (most) wanted list is "doxing"? [Edit] "An international search is underway for Daniil Maksimovich SHCHUKIN on suspicion of numerous counts of gang-related and commercial extortion using ransomware to the detriment of commercial enterprises, public facilities, and institutions."

Yeah, I’m not okay with this. Doxxing is a term with an extremely negative connotation and is often done to people who, bluntly, weren’t hiding or doing anything wrong. The correct term for the same act here is either “accuse” or “unmask”.

So basically it's like Terrorism or Genociding, where if it's against the team you are rooting for, it is that, and if it's not against your in-group it's just War?

I'd rather "doxxing" just mean "de-anonymizing" because that's 1) how I already read it, 2) removes the whole "who is the more moral side in this dispute therefore has the right to make the accusation" problem

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#79

Post by mulmen »

mschild wrote: post #54
embedding-shape wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no, kidnapping is unlawful abduction. But abduction is always abduction, regardless of who does it, police can abduct people too, but when criminals do so, we call it kidnapping, since it's illegal. Not sure what point you were trying to make, but I think it failed to land properly.

"Doxing" has negative connotations. Its almost always associated with a private person (ie not police or anyone of a judicial system) releasing personal information with malicious intent. As the person above you said, semantics are important. This is a judicial system specifically searching for a person they believe to have caused severe criminal harm.

While I don’t think this case is accurately described as Doxxing I also reject the definition that the state can’t commit Doxxing. The reason this situation doesn’t count is because of due process, not simply state action. The state is not infallible, regardless of what immunity may try to establish.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#80

Post by flipped »

seanhunter wrote: post #76
flipped wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People often forget that Threat Actors (TA) are the ones keeping the infosec alive. They are doing a good job of scaring people into implementing actual security protocols and thereby improving everyone's security posture. The whole infosec would collapse without TAs, let's not forget that. They create jobs.

This is the “Broken Window” fallacy[1] which was explained by Bastiat. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

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