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German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

krebsonsecurity.com

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Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#41

Post by embedding-shape »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #35
embedding-shape wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Putting someone on a (most) wanted list is "doxing"? No, if they just put UNKN on the most wanted list, then it wouldn't be doxing. But then they also tie UNKN together with "Daniil Maksimovich Shchukin", and that's the doxxing, regardless or not if it's on a most wanted list.

I think this is not how wanted lists work, here in Germany at least. Do they work this way where you are living? The goal of wanted lists in Germany is to find the person the police is searching for to put them in front of a court if the prosecution can make a case. Perhaps this goes back to leftist terrorism in Germany in the 1970s, they would not use the code names of terrorists on the wanted lists but their real n…

What do you mean "this is not how wanted lists work"? The goal everywhere is to find the people on the wanted list, that's why they're called "wanted" in the first place. Is there something in my comment indicating I don't believe wanted lists are for finding people?

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#42

Post by rwmj »

embedding-shape wrote: post #32
moomin wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I’m not okay with this. Doxxing is a term with an extremely negative connotation and is often done to people who, bluntly, weren’t hiding or doing anything wrong. The correct term for the same act here is either “accuse” or “unmask”.

If someone wasn't previously known, only an alias or alter-ego, but you then link those together with a real-life identity, that's very much the definition of "doxxing", at least the original definition, maybe it's different today? Positive or negative doesn't really matter, just like "shooting" or "jumping" in itself isn't positive or negative, it's just a verb.

If you want an alias that's fine, just don't use it to do crimes.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#43

Post by [deleted] »

embedding-shape wrote: post #33
KingOfCoders wrote: post #20

Putting someone on a (most) wanted list is "doxing"? [Edit] "An international search is underway for Daniil Maksimovich SHCHUKIN on suspicion of numerous counts of gang-related and commercial extortion using ransomware to the detriment of commercial enterprises, public facilities, and institutions."

> Putting someone on a (most) wanted list is "doxing"? No, if they just put UNKN on the most wanted list, then it wouldn't be doxing. But then they also tie UNKN together with "Daniil Maksimovich Shchukin", and that's the doxxing, regardless or not if it's on a most wanted list.

[deleted]

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#44

Post by embedding-shape »

usrusr wrote: post #38
embedding-shape wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone wasn't previously known, only an alias or alter-ego, but you then link those together with a real-life identity, that's very much the definition of "doxxing", at least the original definition, maybe it's different today? Positive or negative doesn't really matter, just like "shooting" or "jumping" in itself isn't positive or negative, it's just a verb.

And if the police actually catches the accused and puts them in jail, is that kidnapping? Most verbs have far more semantics than just the most basic before/after state diff.

Well, no, kidnapping is unlawful abduction. But abduction is always abduction, regardless of who does it, police can abduct people too, but when criminals do so, we call it kidnapping, since it's illegal. Not sure what point you were trying to make, but I think it failed to land properly.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#45

Post by KingOfCoders »

embedding-shape wrote: post #41
KingOfCoders wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is not how wanted lists work, here in Germany at least. Do they work this way where you are living? The goal of wanted lists in Germany is to find the person the police is searching for to put them in front of a court if the prosecution can make a case. Perhaps this goes back to leftist terrorism in Germany in the 1970s, they would not use the code names of terrorists on the wanted lists but their real n…

What do you mean "this is not how wanted lists work"? The goal everywhere is to find the people on the wanted list, that's why they're called "wanted" in the first place. Is there something in my comment indicating I don't believe wanted lists are for finding people?

"No, if they just put UNKN on the most wanted list, then it wouldn't be doxing."

I misread that as it either would be the thing to do or an alternative option and you were against putting names on a wanted list.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#46

Post by oytis »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #30
Yokohiii wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly, criminals also have a right to privacy. However, the limited publication of personal data of criminals by law enforcement is generally a legally legitimate measure. Doxxing, on the other hand, is generally a process that violates the fundamental right to privacy.

>criminals >law >legally You keep using these words but it causes circular logic as those are all defined by the same entity that is acting unilaterally. The action the government took was not a "good" action by any moral standard. But it was perhaps the least worse action available all things considered. Can't just whisk people off the street in a foreign country or drone them over such matters, those options would…

Running a ransomware gang is immoral. Catching someone running a ransomware gang is good. If publishing their name helps catch them, it's also good. Not sure where do you see the gap between legality and morality in this case

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#47

Post by embedding-shape »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #45
embedding-shape wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean "this is not how wanted lists work"? The goal everywhere is to find the people on the wanted list, that's why they're called "wanted" in the first place. Is there something in my comment indicating I don't believe wanted lists are for finding people?

"No, if they just put UNKN on the most wanted list, then it wouldn't be doxing." I misread that as it either would be the thing to do or an alternative option and you were against putting names on a wanted list.

No, I was just trying to clarify that the "doxxing" part is not the "add $name to $list" but "tie $alias to $real-name".

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#48

Post by KPGv2 »

usrusr wrote: post #38
embedding-shape wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone wasn't previously known, only an alias or alter-ego, but you then link those together with a real-life identity, that's very much the definition of "doxxing", at least the original definition, maybe it's different today? Positive or negative doesn't really matter, just like "shooting" or "jumping" in itself isn't positive or negative, it's just a verb.

And if the police actually catches the accused and puts them in jail, is that kidnapping? Most verbs have far more semantics than just the most basic before/after state diff.

I have, admittedly, only been on the Internet for thirty-five years or so, but I seem to recall that a long time ago reading about people "doxxing" guys who posted pictures of them torturing cats and dogs.

"Doxxing" certainly doesn't carry a negative connotation in that usage. Unless you live in a culture where torturing domesticated animals is a good thing.

ANd I recall that, before that, hackers would doxx other hackers in the 90s in order to get them arrested. Again, that seems like the exact same usage as here: tying a pseudonym to an IRL for purposes of law enforcement.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#49

Post by KPGv2 »

nailer wrote: post #8

Feels odd for an infosec blog to use 'doxxing' this way. Doxxing is generally considered to be unethical exposure of personal information. Identifying a criminal is ethical.

"Doxxing" is from the 90s and was used to describe a hacker unmasking another hacker so they could be arrested. That's almost exactly the same usage as here.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#50

Post by KPGv2 »

Yokohiii wrote: post #22
cucumber3732842 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Identifying a criminal is ethical. This outsourcing of one's morals to the state is excessive even by already high western white collar internet standards. Now, make no mistake, these guys are up to no good and probably should be identified and prosecuted, but to just declare that a bad thing is now good because government is doing it is basically an abdication of one's moral compass. At best this is still a bad thi…

Certainly, criminals also have a right to privacy. However, the limited publication of personal data of criminals by law enforcement is generally a legally legitimate measure. Doxxing, on the other hand, is generally a process that violates the fundamental right to privacy.

> Doxxing, on the other hand, is generally a process that violates the fundamental right to privacy.

It historically was used for this exact case: revealing someone hiding behind a pseudonym for purposes of law enforcement. The term dates back to the 90s, if not earlier.

This isn't something Gen Z made up. It's a Gen X term. "Hack the gibson" era. Wargames era.

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