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Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

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Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#281

Post by justsomehnguy »

simonask wrote: post #264
cloud-oak wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This one caught me completely off guard when opening YouTube the first time on an iPad: Accidentally clicked on a wrong button and got stuck in a "please subscribe to premium" modal. No amount of swiping or tapping outside the popup would help, only thing left was killing the entire app. This experience put a major dent in my perception of the "Apple has the most intuitive UI" narrative.

How is bad UX in the YouTube app Apple's fault? You can mess up Android's back button as well.

If Ah, yes, problems with the UI on the OS which for 99% consists of modals is not the OS vendor problem, noted.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#282

Post by fareesh »

The root of the problems seems to be trying to find a holy grail design that works across all their businesses. Surface tablet mode, touchscreen laptop, touchscreen desktop (surface studio), mouse and keyboard PC, stylus input, etc.

Then there's a lot of legacy stuff that needs to continue working because otherwise you end up with a non backwards compatible windows.

Then you have to get everyone at microsoft across all their bajillion products to change the UI from Task manager to the 5th level of settings for some obscure ODBC connector.

It's not going to happen I suspect

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#283

Post by tonyedgecombe »

DeathArrow wrote: post #255

At this point I don't get why they don't open source Windows and developer tools, make a foundation to steer the code, accept contributions and borrow ideas from other operating systems.

One of their problems is borrowing ideas from other operating systems. Windows is full of Apple envy whether the addition made sense or not.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#284

Post by Anamon »

vscode-rest wrote: post #192
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For all the complaints about modern JavaScript it gives you the pieces to make a very pleasant world in terms of DX and UX There is no such thing as pleasant UX in a web app. The best experience will always be a native app, a web app is at best a port in a storm solution.

Figma is far superior to the native apps it replaced. As is VS Code. Slack.

One could (and I would) argue that they achieved that despite their web-tech-based UIs, not because of. At least those of us who were around for the days when most apps were still native, do notice and get bothered by the input lag, for instance.

Slack is, in fact, one of the worst offenders. It is so incredibly sluggish. And it doesn't need to be, when I compare it to the speed (and memory consumption) of Pidgin with the Slack plugin.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#285

Post by cedilla »

sizeofdouble wrote: post #279
bartread wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The deeper problem is that Microsoft keeps trying to solve GUI consistency at the framework layer I really don't think that's the fundamental issue. TFA points out, and I agree, that the fundamental issue is political: competing teams across different divisions coming up with different solutions to solve the same problem that are then all released and pushed in a confusing mishmash of messages. I haven't written a…

Honestly, things like Electron are quite literally the problem! All of people’s modern desktop woes begin and end at the browser. Here’s why: the late 2010’s push into the cloud made JavaScript all-the-rage. A language the creator made in pretty much a weekend coding session. There naturally is major business incentives powering this. SaaS made things MUCH easier for delivering software. Fast forward 15 years and MSF…

That may be how JavaScript started, but unless your claim is that JavaScript hasn't changed at all in the thirty years or so since then, your argument is a complete non-sequitur.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#286

Post by jhbadger »

pjmlp wrote: post #268
noodletheworld wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, you think SwiftUI has more bugs than the ten different Microsoft frameworks? There are just more people encountering them because the developers are concentrated on using one thing . It’s not perfect, but a compared to Microsoft , calling Apple out for having bugs is a little rich isn't it? I pose to you, if the Microsoft offerings are so compelling, why are the serious players using 3rd party wrappers like…

If Apple products are so compelling why are so many devs using Electron, React Native and Flutter on macOS, to the point it deserved being mentioned at WWDC 2025 State of the Nation Keynote? My point was don't throw stones when having a big glass roof as well. Apple isn't the perfection you make out to be, also has a rich history of failures, and only did not went bankrupt due to sheer luck of doing the right decisio…

That's a different issue. Things like Electron are popular not because native development is buggy, but because most developers these days are web developers. They know Javascript. They've never written anything in C/C++ or even the slightly friendlier Swift, Rust, or Go. Electron lets people who only know the Web make desktop apps.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#287

Post by justsomehnguy »

teekert wrote: post #238
Iulioh wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evergreen question of "how do you go back and/or close an app on IOS?"

I feel that some people are just too old to get used to the swipe based ui. I mean friends of mine who just keep buying the only phones with (screen based) back and home buttons.

I feel that some people are just forgetting what the reason it's easy for them is because they learned that "swipe based UI" ages ago.

When I get handed iPhone I have no clue on how to even open an additional tab in Safari and any finger gestures do not do the things what I expect nor there is a lick of indication on how to do something. It's all just a memorized magical incantations at this point. But hey you are familiar with them so it's easy to bash on everyone who is not in yours eco-system.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#288

Post by atoav »

MarcelinoGMX3C wrote: post #144

The deeper problem is that Microsoft keeps trying to solve GUI consistency at the framework layer instead of the design system layer. WinForms, WPF, UWP, WinUI -- each one a new framework, each one eventually abandoned. Apple solved this by treating the design system as the product and letting the framework be invisible. Microsoft has it backwards every time.

The deeper problem is that all these layers are still in use somewhere within Windows. Try to give your Ethernetcard a fixed IP Address for example. On your way to the correct setting (which has visually looked that way when I was still going to school) you will move through maybe 3 or 4 layers of UI paradigms like a freaking media archeologist. Each of the newer layers dumbed things down and kept the old thing as a fallback.

Meanwhile in MacOS they dumb things down without a fallback.

The only people who appear to make serious attempts at improving the usability of computers are the likes of KDE and other Linux desktop environments. It used to be the way that Linux was the thing you used despite its shortcomings compared to commercial OSs..

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#289

Post by paavope »

pjmlp wrote: post #268
noodletheworld wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, you think SwiftUI has more bugs than the ten different Microsoft frameworks? There are just more people encountering them because the developers are concentrated on using one thing . It’s not perfect, but a compared to Microsoft , calling Apple out for having bugs is a little rich isn't it? I pose to you, if the Microsoft offerings are so compelling, why are the serious players using 3rd party wrappers like…

If Apple products are so compelling why are so many devs using Electron, React Native and Flutter on macOS, to the point it deserved being mentioned at WWDC 2025 State of the Nation Keynote? My point was don't throw stones when having a big glass roof as well. Apple isn't the perfection you make out to be, also has a rich history of failures, and only did not went bankrupt due to sheer luck of doing the right decisio…

Nobody in this thread is claiming Apple is perfect, just ahead of MS in UI consistency and _less_ buggy

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#290

Post by tonyedgecombe »

WhereIsTheTruth wrote: post #202

Every year the same debate, every year the same Microslop apologists in the comments, every year nothing ever changes, every year Microslop's market cap keeps groing, every year the same problems Microslop should have been dismantled decades ago, it's now too late, we need a paradigm shift so that Microsoft no longer affects our society

Every year Windows loses a little more market share.
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