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Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

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Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#221
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point one must ask if Microsoft is still a software platform company - whether their products form a substrate where an ecosystem can form and build a coherent software environment for the users of their platform. Microsoft used to be the Windows company (after being the BASIC company, then the DOS company). Then it became the Office company. Now it’s SharePoint and Office365 and Azure, a utility. Windows is…

Microsoft has always had a broad vision of itself as a technology company; I feel it's perfectly fine to not be able to describe Microsoft in one sentence without using platitudes like "empower every person on Earth to achieve more" or "put a computer in every home and every office" (both paraphrases of actual MSFT company mission statements), and I suspect many other current and former Microsoft employees would feel…

> "put a computer in every home and every office"

That was such an amazing mission statement. It was a real measurable goal, and progress towards it was quantifiable. And Microsoft actually did it! That mission statement drove actual strategies (lower costs, don't complete with Apple on the high end, force OEMs to compete against each other on price, etc) that resulted in its ultimate fulfillment.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#222
I had the displeasure to work with various MS systems over the years and coherence is not a concept in Redmond. It just isn't.

The layers of outdated and conflicting documentation, fragmented logins, the naming (365, live, .net [both naming everything that and the .net core naming labyrinth], copilot), Teams never made sense, Windows had levels and levels of settings (win10 preferences all the way back to dialogs predating the mammoth).

MS was, is and always be a blight upon this earth.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#223
post #63

The churn would have been much worse if Microsoft was rolling out successful GUI framework after GUI framework. As it is you can still write a Win32 app if that pleases you, or still write .NET (and damn that runtime download!) Microsoft has bought into ‘make a web app’ since 1988, they introduced AJAX, they got flexbox and grid into CSS and numerous HTML 5 features to support application UIs. They ‘frikin bought npm…

Your post is touching on a key question: why write a Windows-specific app? I'm a developer who has built and published several apps. I want the biggest possible audience for those apps. Why would I limit those apps to Windows? (Or even to any single platform/OS?) Web apps work everywhere. The web has grown increasingly powerful and capable. Why would I invest in a technology that can only run on a single OS? Doesn't…

Features. Speed. Do your web apps only work in Chrome by the way?

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#224
post #63

The churn would have been much worse if Microsoft was rolling out successful GUI framework after GUI framework. As it is you can still write a Win32 app if that pleases you, or still write .NET (and damn that runtime download!) Microsoft has bought into ‘make a web app’ since 1988, they introduced AJAX, they got flexbox and grid into CSS and numerous HTML 5 features to support application UIs. They ‘frikin bought npm…

Your post is touching on a key question: why write a Windows-specific app? I'm a developer who has built and published several apps. I want the biggest possible audience for those apps. Why would I limit those apps to Windows? (Or even to any single platform/OS?) Web apps work everywhere. The web has grown increasingly powerful and capable. Why would I invest in a technology that can only run on a single OS? Doesn't…

What happens when the user doesn't have internet access, or only has very slow internet? What if they're on a metered connection?

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#225
post #88

Steven Sinofsky wrote this piece a couple of weeks ago about the same topic: https://x.com/stevesi/status/2036921223150440542

It's very amusing to see Sinofsky of all people all but dumping on .NET and (still?!) not understanding why developers so proactively jumped ship from Win32 & MFC hell to WinForms. Or why the HTML/JS app model in Win8 never really took off. I was in DevDiv during his great WinRT push and the overall feeling I remember was that the guys in Windows had zero clue as to what the devs actually wanted, but were hell bent o…

It seems Windows division has too much power and they used it to break their things.

Also, Windows division is shipping a subpar product now.

In a sane world developer division and Windows division would think things together, developer division would produce the tools and the same tools would be used by Windows, other Microsoft products such as Office and third party developers.

Why that doesn't happen at Microsoft, I don't understand.

And I don't understand why Nadella doesn't do anything about it.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#227
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was referring to IOS, not MACOS Androids do have universal back button at the bottom on the phone or the same swipe gesture if you want but iphones do not. Sometimes swipe (the direction and position is a guessing game), sometimes and x (right or left ) and the behavior is inconsistent too (back or close) There are some guidelines but more often than not seems like every app has it's own method and you need to get…

In iOS, task manager and closure can't be overridden. You swipe right to return to previous application. You can swipe left for a couple of seconds if you didn't intend to do that. You swipe up and remove the application from the stack, all processes of the application is killed. Background processing has strict limits, and you need permissions to run longer than that, and for some use cases, there are no recourse. O…

What about going "back" INSIDE an application?

Think for example reddit, you open a thread, how do you go back?

You open the "reply window, now ho you ho back? Maybe close it directly?

I Android this is all handled by the same function and is often ranked as the most frustrating design choice in IOS

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#228
post #24

Having spent some time kicking around the Delphi space I got quite into WPF in 2007ish. By 2010 I had not just sworn off it, I'd sworn off Windows entirely. The constant stream of rug-pulls as one bit of MS managed to pull off a political heist over another and - oh no - yet another "latest and greatest" technology was effectively deprecated within 18 months of launch, invalidating all the effort you put in to stayin…

Microsoft had a lot of great talent suffering from a lack of leadership and coherent vision. They foreshadowed everything wrong with Big Tech today.

what surprised me is how different the rendering architecture is for each framework.

Win32 -> message loops & GDI

Winforms -> managed C# via P/Invoke

WPF -> throwse all away and uses DirectX

UWP -> Appcontainer sandboxing

WinUI -> decouples from OS entirely

This visual breakdown helped me to see it clearly - https://vectree.io/c/evolution-of-windows-gui-frameworks-fro...

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#229

That illustration at the end of the article is quite something.

What are you talking about? As a "Chrondum and frade.js" developer, I found it very flelpful.

I for one am on the Mindows Seam, where I can enjoy the books of Charloy Reccold.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#230
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The end state of genAI is that the end user is the enterprise

The end state of genAI could as well be a few billionaires being their enterprise and everybody else being unemployed or working at the factory. Robots are not there yet (far from it) and someone needs to build and maintain the thing as well as food for everyone. High unemployment could drive salaries down and make lots of thing unavailable to the common people while making humans cheaper than automation for boring m…

> High unemployment could drive salaries down and make lots of thing unavailable to the common people while making humans cheaper than automation for boring manual work.

‘I wanted a machine to do the dishes for me so I could concentrate on my art, and what I got was a machine to do the art so now I’m the one doing the dishes’

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