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Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

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Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#171
post #65

The web revolution is to Windows UI what vibe coding is to programming today. It brought in a massive group of people who didn't need to understand message pumps, or handles or non-blocking api calls. On top of that, it delivered incrementally more capable result each year. View source taught millions how to build modals, blurred overlay. Meanwhile, the old group of programmers were still worrying about how to protec…

I agree with the thesis of your post, but where we differ is that I think both of those were (are) bad things. Both web apps and vibe coding are causing the market to be flooded with low quality software, not only making the market worse but also giving future generations fewer examples of well-made software to look up to.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#172
post #73
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point one must ask if Microsoft is still a software platform company - whether their products form a substrate where an ecosystem can form and build a coherent software environment for the users of their platform. Microsoft used to be the Windows company (after being the BASIC company, then the DOS company). Then it became the Office company. Now it’s SharePoint and Office365 and Azure, a utility. Windows is…

Nadella thought he could take the reins and start yelling “Cloud! Cloud! Cloud!” and that would be successful. He doesn’t have a strategy and now that’s becoming apparent.

Cloud is now massively larger than any other part of Microsoft. It's why he became the CEO in the first place.

He maybe never had a strategy for Windows but he wasn't hired to have a strategy for Windows.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#174
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very amusing to see Sinofsky of all people all but dumping on .NET and (still?!) not understanding why developers so proactively jumped ship from Win32 & MFC hell to WinForms. Or why the HTML/JS app model in Win8 never really took off. I was in DevDiv during his great WinRT push and the overall feeling I remember was that the guys in Windows had zero clue as to what the devs actually wanted, but were hell bent o…

Sinofsky kept talking about how many devs were making apps in JavaScript and how they would just be at home in Win8. This was before React, ES5 (no native classes! or promises!), etc- jQuery was still very popular and SPAs were extremely rare. He completely overlooked how dependent many of these devs were on their servers- Python, Ruby, PHP, etc.

They thought after V8 the performance was going keep improving and reach native speeds, they didn’t understand that the major performance wins were all upfront and it would hit a wall.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#175

The deeper problem is that Microsoft keeps trying to solve GUI consistency at the framework layer instead of the design system layer. WinForms, WPF, UWP, WinUI -- each one a new framework, each one eventually abandoned. Apple solved this by treating the design system as the product and letting the framework be invisible. Microsoft has it backwards every time.

I agree. Except that WinForms has not been abandoned. In fact, it's one of the supported paths in the modern .NET stack.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#176
I was recently exploring "an OS from scratch" architecture with ChatGPT. Apart from the central idea that I wanted it to be a capability OS, I also started thinking about how I'd make GUI apps and what layers would naturally make sense.

The cleanest design I came up with works like this:

1. At Layer_1 OS provides panes or windows to which apps can render whatever graphics using OS gpu lib (think Raylib, but maybe a bit simpler). This is good for apps that want performance, games, text editors, things like that - so this is maximum control.

2. Next Layer_2 would be based on the browser engine (which, to some degree, would have to be developer - not a full browser, but just enough to render more or less modern html/css with a DOM-aware JS engine). Then provide some XML schema that would automatically translate into HTML/CSS to render various UI-widgets (defined by XML/HTML elements). This would eventually suggest a JavaScript UI framework on top, but no a requirement. This layer is flexible enough that it uses widgets defined by the system, but allows custom CSS and JavaScript.

3. Layer_3, or more like Layer_2.5 would basically allow custom HTML/CSS without relying on system widgets and XML schema.

Obviously you can mix all three layers into one GUI too. Finally layers (2) and (3) would require some client/server architecture, but instead of shipping it like a webapp, I'd probably provide some JavaScript API to talk to the backend (which in this case is accessible via a socket of some sorts). Apps themselves could still be single binaries that include html/css/js assets which are provided at launch time to the system UI renderer, which then uses them to render the UI via a webview in said pane or window.

I think it's pretty slick and it only gets complicated gradually, but it also requires solid OS plumbing and machinery to make this process smooth. None of the modern systems are capable of it in the way I described it, so people end up shipping nodejs/react apps with webview inside gigabyte-binaries.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#177
post #161

> WPF was good As someone who saw what impact WPF had on average users running average hardware in the late 2000s to early 2010s, I disagree. In 2011, my brother was in seminary, using an average Windows Vista-era laptop that he had been given in 2008. When he was home for Christmas in 2011, we were talking about his laptop, and he told me that the Logos Bible software ran sluggishly on that laptop. He said something…

It goes back pretty far. Nowadays the controversy is electron vs native (where most windows devs would consider WPF/.NET a native option). But if you read books from the 2000s, there was much discussion about the performance overhead of a VM and garbage collected language; something like WinForms was considered the bloated lazy option. I’m sure in a few years computers will catch up (IMO they did a while ago actually…

What have you heard about SwiftUI being bloated?

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that was less that WPF was the wrong life choice and more that Microsoft shouldn't have bent the knee to Intel's antitrust push to say their crap hardware was sufficient. [1] [1] - https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2008/03/the-vista-capable-de...

Apple had been doing GPU-accelerated GUIs since the early NeXT days; it was certainly possible on hardware weaker than what Vista required.

I mean Apple had a GPU-accelerated GUI in 1990, but probably not what we think of "GPU accelerated" these days

https://wiki.preterhuman.net/Apple_Macintosh_Display_Card_8-...

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#180
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Bill pretty much chilled out since he stepped down?

I just looked into this a bit because I thought he still had some kind of role at Microsoft even after leaving as CEO/chairman, but it turns out that in 2020 he left any and all positions at Microsoft as it was investigating him over inappropriate sexual relationships he had with Microsoft employees. Before that he had a role as a technical advisor and sat on the board of directors. I also found it interesting that S…

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