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Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

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Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#191

Post by vscode-rest »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #127
judah wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post is touching on a key question: why write a Windows-specific app? I'm a developer who has built and published several apps. I want the biggest possible audience for those apps. Why would I limit those apps to Windows? (Or even to any single platform/OS?) Web apps work everywhere. The web has grown increasingly powerful and capable. Why would I invest in a technology that can only run on a single OS? Doesn't…

> Web apps work everywhere. The web has grown increasingly powerful and capable. Why would I invest in a technology that can only run on a single OS? There are other options besides "web app" and "only one OS". A cross platform app which uses something like GTK or QT will be a massively better experience for your users, one a web app cannot hope to equal.

What’s an example of a well made GTK or QT app in your opinion? And what would be the steel man Web app to compare that to?

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#192

Post by vscode-rest »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #126
PaulHoule wrote: post #2

The churn would have been much worse if Microsoft was rolling out successful GUI framework after GUI framework. As it is you can still write a Win32 app if that pleases you, or still write .NET (and damn that runtime download!) Microsoft has bought into ‘make a web app’ since 1988, they introduced AJAX, they got flexbox and grid into CSS and numerous HTML 5 features to support application UIs. They ‘frikin bought npm…

> For all the complaints about modern JavaScript it gives you the pieces to make a very pleasant world in terms of DX and UX There is no such thing as pleasant UX in a web app. The best experience will always be a native app, a web app is at best a port in a storm solution.

Figma is far superior to the native apps it replaced. As is VS Code. Slack.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#193

Post by pjmlp »

stefan_ wrote: post #101
lenkite wrote: post #28

The problem is that they just could not commit to anything for more than 2 years after Win32. They had something reasonably good in WinRT. They should have stuck to that. But Nadella came in, said Azure Cloud is the future and abandoned the Windows platform.

WinRT was technologically terrible (which immediately flows from "no one at Microsoft was actually using it to make anything useful"). But that wasn't even what sunk it - the whole requirements around "of course your WinRT app is going to be in the Microsoft Store^TM its the future" did that. The fucking store is a joke, and those requirements existed solely to boost a bunch of idiots internal careers.

Correct for the Windows 8 and 8.1 initial versions, it was already quite good with UWP on Windows 10.

But then they rioted internally to kill C++/CX (the only time they had something comparable to C++ Builder), Project Reunion got announced and misused from the original goal, porting WinRT back into Win32 killed .NET Native as well, most of the key team members left to Amazon and Google, Azure or AI teams, the team is now mostly interns or juniors from Microsoft India, no direction, and is a mess, naturally.

I went from a WinRT advocate, to pointing out devs to stay away from it, this is how bad they treated those that actually believed WinRT could be it.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#194

Post by pjmlp »

garganzol wrote: post #125
stefan_ wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WinRT was technologically terrible (which immediately flows from "no one at Microsoft was actually using it to make anything useful"). But that wasn't even what sunk it - the whole requirements around "of course your WinRT app is going to be in the Microsoft Store^TM its the future" did that. The fucking store is a joke, and those requirements existed solely to boost a bunch of idiots internal careers.

My favorite example of that was when WinRT app .exe files could not be launched from the command line. Only via some Windows Store voodoo dance with approvals, signatures and "security" that made WinRT for developers essentially a dead-on-arrival technology. I would not be surprised if you still cannot launch a fricking .exe.

This was sorted out in Windows 10 with the unification of WinRT programming models under UWP.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#195

Post by pjmlp »

judah wrote: post #63
PaulHoule wrote: post #2

The churn would have been much worse if Microsoft was rolling out successful GUI framework after GUI framework. As it is you can still write a Win32 app if that pleases you, or still write .NET (and damn that runtime download!) Microsoft has bought into ‘make a web app’ since 1988, they introduced AJAX, they got flexbox and grid into CSS and numerous HTML 5 features to support application UIs. They ‘frikin bought npm…

Your post is touching on a key question: why write a Windows-specific app? I'm a developer who has built and published several apps. I want the biggest possible audience for those apps. Why would I limit those apps to Windows? (Or even to any single platform/OS?) Web apps work everywhere. The web has grown increasingly powerful and capable. Why would I invest in a technology that can only run on a single OS? Doesn't…

Because many of those features aren't Web, rather Chrome OS Application Platform, but apparently folks forgot everything about IE history lesson.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#196

Post by Zardoz84 »

bombcar wrote: post #160
rincebrain wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that was less that WPF was the wrong life choice and more that Microsoft shouldn't have bent the knee to Intel's antitrust push to say their crap hardware was sufficient. [1] [1] - https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2008/03/the-vista-capable-de...

Apple had been doing GPU-accelerated GUIs since the early NeXT days; it was certainly possible on hardware weaker than what Vista required.

Windows 3.1, with the aproppiated drivers and modern SVGA card, had accelerated 2d graphics. Accelerated GUIs don't even need GPU or 3d.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#197

Post by Dwedit »

GaProgMan wrote: post #175
MarcelinoGMX3C wrote: post #144

The deeper problem is that Microsoft keeps trying to solve GUI consistency at the framework layer instead of the design system layer. WinForms, WPF, UWP, WinUI -- each one a new framework, each one eventually abandoned. Apple solved this by treating the design system as the product and letting the framework be invisible. Microsoft has it backwards every time.

I agree. Except that WinForms has not been abandoned. In fact, it's one of the supported paths in the modern .NET stack.

WinForms is a layer built on top of raw Win32. So it's not portable.

Even though Wine exists, Win32 calls can only be made from Win32 programs, not native Linux programs. So a WinForms app using the latest dotnet would need to run the Windows version of dotnet under Wine, and not use the Linux version of dotnet.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#198

Post by DeathArrow »

Dwedit wrote: post #197
GaProgMan wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Except that WinForms has not been abandoned. In fact, it's one of the supported paths in the modern .NET stack.

WinForms is a layer built on top of raw Win32. So it's not portable. Even though Wine exists, Win32 calls can only be made from Win32 programs, not native Linux programs. So a WinForms app using the latest dotnet would need to run the Windows version of dotnet under Wine, and not use the Linux version of dotnet.

>WinForms is a layer built on top of raw Win32. So it's not portable.

Neither are SwiftUI and AppKity.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#199

Post by Iulioh »

pjmlp wrote: post #190
MarcelinoGMX3C wrote: post #144

The deeper problem is that Microsoft keeps trying to solve GUI consistency at the framework layer instead of the design system layer. WinForms, WPF, UWP, WinUI -- each one a new framework, each one eventually abandoned. Apple solved this by treating the design system as the product and letting the framework be invisible. Microsoft has it backwards every time.

Being a 70's child, in computing since the mid 80s you made me almost spill my Monday coffee. What a laugh, do you want the examples on Apple's side?

The evergreen question of "how do you go back and/or close an app on IOS?"

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#200

Post by 0x1ceb00da »

mrtksn wrote: post #67

I remember when ChatGPT exploded and Bing had it integrated, the idea was brilliant because unlike ChatGPT it didn't have information cut-off since it can access the web. I was very excited to ditch Google for AI chat with web access. How did MS actually implemented it though? After a few messages the chat is blocked because MS did not choose to walk the extra mile and maybe compact the context so that their product…

> Apple that doesn't allow to ship its own UI libraries

You can just render on a canvas like flutter and KMP. Most end users don't care

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