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German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

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Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#261

Post by applfanboysbgon »

baxtr wrote: post #62
cebert wrote: post #30

I am shocked that there isn’t more opposition from the general public to policies like this that erode privacy and freedom. I am a parent and can appreciate the need to control what children do on the internet, but at some point parents need to parent. I fear we’re giving up a lot of freedom and adding unneeded complexity under the guise of keeping children safe.

I think because most people, even tech savvy ones don’t understand how this might effect their lives. It’s too abstract. At least how it’s portrayed here. Contrast that with chat control. My government can read my WhatsApp messages? Not good! What’s the non-technical narrative here?

The non-technical narrative is very simple: Google, Apple, or the German government can revoke your ID at any time. You cannot purchase or sell anything[1], sign any contracts, have a job, rent an apartment, use public transportation, or receive any kind of government services without an ID. This should sound extremely alarming to everyone regardless of technical knowledge.

[1] Maybe with cash, for now, but cash is clearly not long for this world, and your bank account will be inaccessible already.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#262

Post by sippeangelo »

dark-star wrote: post #239
haagch wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German citizen here. So why is an implementation going forward when you already know it will not serve all citizens? Why are we not refusing to implement this until we know we can make it work on all devices? Personally I recently switched from an AOSP based android without Google Play to Ubuntu Touch. In the future with better hardware support I will probably switch to postmarketOS.

because then it will never get done. There are still people using old Nokia phones, for those there will never be a solution. The usual 80/20 rule applies here as well. And if you really are a German citizen, you know how slow the wheels of government already turn in Germany, I assume next week you would be the one complaining that "Germany is so far behind" and that "other countries are so much faster at implementin…

Then maybe it shouldn't be done? What??

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#263

Post by jonathanstrange »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #244
makerofthings wrote: post #240

Requiring people to use products from one of two private American companies with a bad track record of locking people out of their accounts is more than “not great”. Some things are better not done if they can’t be done well.

Yes but in the real world all smartphones are either Apple or Android. Europe has zero footprint in either software or hardware. It is not creating a requirement to use specific products, it is using the products people already have. So one may argue that the implementers are only taking the pragmatic approach regarding something that is out of their hands.

We're talking about an essential government service, not just another weather app. You have to look at this through the lense of national security, the debate about EU digital sovereignty, and the requirements of the GDPR in light of the US CLOUD Act, as well as prior decisions of EU courts about these issues.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#264

Post by rafaelmn »

archerx wrote: post #159
stingraycharles wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would this be? Bureaucracy / inability to change?

Or someone could be getting kickbacks on the down low.

Or it's just way easier to implement this way and they don't want to waste time on stuff only HN crowd cares about ?

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#265

Post by GoblinSlayer »

darccio wrote: post #114

It makes no sense. eIDAS 2.0 specs don't require specific hardware [0]. They basically store verifiable credentials [1] and any other cryptographically signed attestations. This feels like laziness from German implementers, as they don't want to (quoting the spec literally) "implement a mechanism allowing the User to verify the authenticity of the Wallet Unit". 0: https://eudi.dev/latest/architecture-and-reference-fr…

5.4 Attestation Rulebooks and Attestation schemes

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#266

Post by nip »

nip wrote: post #260
webhamster wrote: post #155

German implementer here. We have to use some kind of attestation mechanism per the eIDAS implementing acts. That doesn't work without operating system support. The initial limitation to Google/Android is not great, we know that, and we have support for other OSs on our list (like, e.g., GrapheneOS). It is simply a matter of where we focus our energy at the moment, not that we don't see the issues.

In light of all of these shortcomings with platform attestation, why go with the eIDAS 2 wallet approach at all? eIDAS 1 already solved this with Mobile-ID (SIM-based, no Google/Apple dependency) and Smart-ID (server-side key management with minimal platform reliance). What does the wallet model give you that justifies this level of dependency on two American corporations’ proprietary backends? Especially considering…

I’m sorry to lash out at you but I keep getting disappointed in European countries (more precisely the ever disappointing EU commission) all suffering of the NIH syndrome instead of collaborating and learning from each other

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#267

Post by 0x3f »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #237
webhamster wrote: post #155

German implementer here. We have to use some kind of attestation mechanism per the eIDAS implementing acts. That doesn't work without operating system support. The initial limitation to Google/Android is not great, we know that, and we have support for other OSs on our list (like, e.g., GrapheneOS). It is simply a matter of where we focus our energy at the moment, not that we don't see the issues.

Another German citizen here. I think what you're doing is illegal and will be blocked by German courts.

It's funny because this is also the exact German response for when your neighbour has an unsanctioned BBQ.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#268

Post by mytailorisrich »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #263
mytailorisrich wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but in the real world all smartphones are either Apple or Android. Europe has zero footprint in either software or hardware. It is not creating a requirement to use specific products, it is using the products people already have. So one may argue that the implementers are only taking the pragmatic approach regarding something that is out of their hands.

We're talking about an essential government service, not just another weather app. You have to look at this through the lense of national security, the debate about EU digital sovereignty, and the requirements of the GDPR in light of the US CLOUD Act, as well as prior decisions of EU courts about these issues.

Yes all that you wrote is true. But that does not magically change anything to what I previously stated: in the real world all smartphones are either Apple or Android...

I don't know what the eIDAS 2.0 requires in term of security but it may make the choice the implementers made here unavoidable in practice, as hinted by @webhamster.

If so, it seems that a solution, if technically possible, might be to mandate that OSes provide the required security features without tie-in.

The outrage in the comments feels a bit like people yelling at clouds...

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#269

Post by qwertox »

makerofthings wrote: post #240

Requiring people to use products from one of two private American companies with a bad track record of locking people out of their accounts is more than “not great”. Some things are better not done if they can’t be done well.

Maybe that will force the companies to not be allowed to just lock you out of the account.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#270

Post by rcbdev »

sunshine-o wrote: post #243
rcbdev wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really have to wonder where in the EU you live. In Vienna, I got to buy an apartment in my mid-twenties by just saving up, which was easy, as many apartments are rent-capped and there's lots of cheap social housing. I got to enjoy free university, allowing me to get a high paying job. I get to use very cheap all electric state-subsidized rental car offerings if I need them, which is rare since we have federally goo…

Yes congratulation, you get to benefit from a lot of regulated and subsidized things: housing, education and transportation. While enjoying a high paying job in probably a still very unregulated domain (computers/internet related). This is not about one country vs another. The problem is you cannot have a society with everybody winning on both fronts unfortunately. You also need people making, cleaning stuff, growing…

> Vienna is probably not food self sufficient

No, but Austria is. And our farmers enjoy much support through subsidies - from the EU and our own budget - and social protections, often having better and cheaper health care than most other Austrians, since they are insured under their very own social insurance law (BSVG), contrary to other employees (ASVG) and self-employed (GSVG).

Farmers also enjoy very high levels of respect and appreciation here, even in Vienna.

> While enjoying a high paying job in probably a still very unregulated domain (computers/internet related).

Calling Information Technology an 'unregulated domain' in the EU when we're all busy implementing NIS2 regulation and preparing for the Cyber Resilience Act entering into force soon seems disingenuous.

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