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The People's Bailout

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Re: The People's Bailout

#211

Post by marknutter »

bo1024 wrote: post #154
vinhboy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying a random stranger's debt with your own money, with no expectations of re-payment or even a personal thank you is entitlement?

I'm not much of an OWS supporter, but a lot of the criticism of it really bothers me. Just a lot of hypocrisy to be frank. - This entitlement thing. I don't see what's entitled about giving one's own time or money to a cause you believe in, to go camp out for weeks or whatever. It seems like a lot of criticism of OWS centers on them acting like they deserve to be given jobs, but I have trouble taking this seriously w…

When I said entitlement, I should have been more specific. I was referring to the growing belief that all student debt should be forgiven and that things like medical care should be free for everybody. Whether the word "entitlement" sounds dirty or not is entirely up to the reader but that's exactly what these things are. One person's "entitlement" is another person's "right". I just happen to disagree that these things should be rights.

Re: The People's Bailout

#212

Post by mkr-hn »

RollingJubilee wrote: post #85
jlarocco wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not 100% sure, but I'd be completely shocked if the banks and credit card companies (or whoever) that sell the debt didn't have to report the sale to some government agency, or even the IRS itself, so the IRS could probably find out that way. And now that OWS has announced they're buying up debt and forgiving it, the IRS is going to have a pretty good idea what's going on...

Yes the IRS knows what we are doing. We called them up and told them. They thought it was pretty cool. w00t!

People are still hungover from the media myth that O* is a bunch of disorganized kids causing trouble.

Re: The People's Bailout

#213

Post by greedo »

bobwaycott wrote: post #97
tsotha wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Except debt can be exactly due to some random accident like getting hit by a car while crossing the street and you don't have the insurance to pay for the medical bills. That's why we have bankruptcy laws. From what I heard at the time, the big hobby horse for the OWS people was student debt, which can't be forgiven in bankruptcy. And that kind of debt is entirely optional.

While I'm not entirely disagreeing with your point, there is an element of dubious optionality wrt student debt when one systemically cannot find gainful employment without a college degree. College degrees are increasingly becoming the new high school diplomas—wherein they are, for all intents and purposes, of equal compulsory nature, without the defense of laws requiring all 18-21-year-olds to be there. Thus, for v…

The problem isn't that people are pursuing degrees, it's that some are pursuing economically unviable degrees. Here's a little anectdata from a friend. His daughter is in debt $60k for a degree in theater. Did well in college, but wants to "make it" in NYC.

Now obviously the theater industry is very competitive, especially in NYC. So while trying to do various theatrical activities to get her foot in the door, she's a dog walker. She doesn't make much money, so she's qualifying for assistance.

She could move back home, get a job in a different field (her dad has lined up several paying jobs), but she wants to stay in NYC. She's unable to make any payments on her loans, so those are going to build up quickly.

This is what drives fiscal conservatives crazy. And when groups are asking for student loan debt forgiveness/bailout, it's doubly frustrating. She's making multiple choices that are fiscally imprudent, and expecting to be subsidized both in assistance and loan forgiveness.

TLDR, basketweaving degrees aren't worth going into debt for, but an entitled generation wants to "pursue their dreams" on someone else's dime.

Re: The People's Bailout

#214

Post by greedo »

bobwaycott wrote: post #188
tsotha wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. There are all kinds of things you can do that don't require a college degree, including any kind of owner-operated business, a military career, or a skilled trade. Even today only 40% of the population gets a college degree. That other 60% is doing something to make ends meet.

I think you miss the point. Systemically , exiting high school and entering college is the narrative. It is the path students are being presented as the way forward, not an option forward. Culturally, there is a very strong set of expectations placed on people wrt university education, and this narrative determines people's recognized option paths. There are strong social determinants in place, both positive and nega…

Then we need to change this narrative, because it doesn't fit the real requirements of the job world. Trade schools, apprentice programs etc are common all over the world, but not as well accepted in the US.

You know who I envy? The electrician who came out last week to install a whole home surge protector. He makes excellent money, in a relatively safe work environment, and has reasonable hours. There's a whole world of "skilled" trades that offer gainful employment without a four year degree, but as a society focused on bling, we don't give those careers our blessings.

Re: The People's Bailout

#215

Post by eru »

marvin wrote: post #158
philwelch wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you lose badly enough at credit that you end up declaring bankruptcy, maybe homeownership or car loans aren't for you. Just a thought.

Could be. But there are some unlucky people in there as well - single parents who bought a house at the peak of the housing bubble because they were afraid that home prices would keep rising and leave them without a place to live. And then promptly lost their job in the recession.

What about renting?

Re: The People's Bailout

#216

Post by greedo »

frio wrote: post #167
philwelch wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only should he not be driving without insurance, but he's almost certainly at fault for hitting the pedestrian. We put some debtors into prison for lesser forms of irresponsibility.

The point is: unexpected debt happens. Arguing semantics over a hypothetical case is not a meaningful tangent :).

You set up a strawman, and then change the point. Defending irresponsible behavior won't do much to improve things.

Re: The People's Bailout

#217

Post by greedo »

elemenohpee wrote: post #196
philwelch wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only should he not be driving without insurance, but he's almost certainly at fault for hitting the pedestrian. We put some debtors into prison for lesser forms of irresponsibility.

That's great, unless he needs to drive to get to work in order to get a paycheck and keep his head above water for another week. Do people really not understand that there are people who do not have the luxury of a risk-free life?

Teaching someone to measure risk is part of parenting, and a good sign of maturity. Driving without insurance is strike one in that calculus, and then hitting a pedestrian is strike two. Helping them out of debt is merely enabling strike three in this scenario.

Take a look at your local newspapers mugshot section. Ours publishes them online, and when bored, it's a fun diversion. The majority of the arrests are for DUI, or driving on a suspended license from a prior DUI. A great cross section of people who don't even care about their impact upon others.

Re: The People's Bailout

#219

Post by justindocanto »

elemenohpee wrote: post #203
justindocanto wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if theyre making payments on the debt, the debt collector won't sell it because theyre actually getting their money. The only debts OWS is going to be able to buy are the ones not making payments and the ones that havent made payments in a very long time. So, as cool as not having to pay 50/100 a month sounds, that wont happen to anybody because the ones paying are not the kind of people that would be getting rel…

> People need food, shelter, clothes, toiletries, warmth That's exactly what Occupy Sandy provided, in some cases better than the Red Cross or FEMA could: http://interoccupy.net/occupysandy/ This is an action by Strike Debt. OWS didn't go away, it's evolved into these different platforms.

Then they should focus on that and not waste their time pretending like their helping people by buying their debt they havent paid in years.

Re: The People's Bailout

#220

Post by greedo »

elemenohpee wrote: post #205
stickfigure wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like the key insight about this issue. The debts OWS buys on the cheap are debts that were never going to be paid off in the first place. The net practical effect of this action is to transfer money from well-meaning people into the hands of debt collection agencies. Seems like the only people being bailed out are debt speculators. Doesn't sound like a worthy cause to me.

You're still only thinking in terms of the market. This action is about raising social capital.

How does this raise social capital? It's not helping the original debtor, and in fact, is increasing the demand for non-performing debt? Collection agencies will LOVE this program, since they can now actually make some money off of non-performing debt. If anything, this will result in collection agencies increasing their harassment of delinquent accounts.
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