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The People's Bailout

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71–80 of 323 posts

Re: The People's Bailout

#71
post #5

So, what would prevent me from going into a massive amount of debt, not repaying it, and asking everyone else to foot my bill? This seems like OWS is saying, "Well, corporations got greedy and were bailed out. Now it's the people's time to do the same thing." Why is something, when supported by a corporation, immoral when the same thing, supported by "the people", is righteous? This seems like it's just encouraging b…

Why is something, when supported by a corporation, immoral when the same thing, supported by "the people", is righteous?

Because corporations are intrinsically evil, and people are by inherent nature righteous, obviously.

I'm being sarcastic, but I honestly believe some of 'em essentially feel that way.

Re: The People's Bailout

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Debt isn't some random accident like getting hit by a car while crossing the street." Except debt can be exactly due to some random accident like getting hit by a car while crossing the street and you don't have the insurance to pay for the medical bills. I'm not saying that this is true for all of the OWS debts: probably not even the majority. I'm just saying that it's not as easy as "it's your fault you're in debt…

This may sound harsh, but medical attention isn't free, and crossing that street without medical insurance and getting hit by a car and accepting expensive treatment you can't pay for is still incurring debt which you are obligated to pay back. This is why insurance of all forms exists; to protect us from expensive, catastrophic events. So as far as fault goes, you are very much to blame if you take risks and choose…

[deleted]

Re: The People's Bailout

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Debt isn't some random accident like getting hit by a car while crossing the street." Except debt can be exactly due to some random accident like getting hit by a car while crossing the street and you don't have the insurance to pay for the medical bills. I'm not saying that this is true for all of the OWS debts: probably not even the majority. I'm just saying that it's not as easy as "it's your fault you're in debt…

This may sound harsh, but medical attention isn't free, and crossing that street without medical insurance and getting hit by a car and accepting expensive treatment you can't pay for is still incurring debt which you are obligated to pay back. This is why insurance of all forms exists; to protect us from expensive, catastrophic events. So as far as fault goes, you are very much to blame if you take risks and choose…

    you are very much to blame if you take risks and choose
    not to pay for insurance, regardless how expensive it is.
I think I understand where you're coming from. You must live in a society in which no one has ever been denied health insurance due to pre-existing conditions. If I lived in such a society, I might agree with you.

Re: The People's Bailout

#74
post #25

For the benefit of folks who might not understand how debt collection works, which may include OWS: if you buy $10,000 of an individual's debt for $500 and then forgive the debt, they have just incurred income of $10,000 and are obligated to pay taxes on it exactly as if you had handed them $10,000 in cash for services rendered. If you don't inform the IRS that you forgave the debt, via a 1099-C, you're going to get…

Hi everyone. I want to assure you all that we are aware of the tax implications. We are working with a pro-bono tax lawyer and have called the IRS several times. The IRS informed us that we do not meet the requirements to file a 1099-c (we are not a bank, credit union, etc.)

Our tax lawyer has written some technical langue for our website. The bottom line is that we will be purchasing debt of people who are most likely insolvent and if you are insolvent there is no tax implications. Period. Even if they are not insolvent the chain of events that would have to take place to result in this counting as taxable income is highly unlikely. It's not impossible, but it's very very very (lots more verys) unlikely.

The long answer is much longer and more technical but rest assured, we are aware of the tax implications and it's not a problem.

Re: The People's Bailout

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Debt isn't some random accident like getting hit by a car while crossing the street." Except debt can be exactly due to some random accident like getting hit by a car while crossing the street and you don't have the insurance to pay for the medical bills. I'm not saying that this is true for all of the OWS debts: probably not even the majority. I'm just saying that it's not as easy as "it's your fault you're in debt…

This may sound harsh, but medical attention isn't free, and crossing that street without medical insurance and getting hit by a car and accepting expensive treatment you can't pay for is still incurring debt which you are obligated to pay back. This is why insurance of all forms exists; to protect us from expensive, catastrophic events. So as far as fault goes, you are very much to blame if you take risks and choose…

It is totally false to assume that anyone with debt from medical bills must be uninsured.

I had an appendectomy when I was in college and I had insurance and I still received a bill for something like $8000 after the insurance paid out. I managed to have half of that removed due to my very low income, and I luckily was able to pay the rest of it, but this was literally the simplest possible ER visit and surgery you can have and I was lucky to have savings to cover it. If anything worse had happened to me (say, if I got hit by a car) then I could easily have ended up with more than $10k in debt after insurance and after the follow up negotiations with the hospital.

Some insurance would certainly have covered this better, but I had the more expensive of the 2 choices insurance plans that were offered to students at my school. Anyone who is buying their own insurance if it's not provided by their employer isn't going to do much better.

Re: The People's Bailout

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may sound harsh, but medical attention isn't free, and crossing that street without medical insurance and getting hit by a car and accepting expensive treatment you can't pay for is still incurring debt which you are obligated to pay back. This is why insurance of all forms exists; to protect us from expensive, catastrophic events. So as far as fault goes, you are very much to blame if you take risks and choose…

The difference in opinion usually winds up being, one party believes medical attention is a basic human right and should be free for everyone. The other party does not.

Well, it's beside the point. For now, medical care costs money, and people rely on that money for their livelihood, and simply walking away from that debt is wrong.

Re: The People's Bailout

#77
This is a curious activity - non-performing debt, i.e. notes not generating any cash for the holder and thus not extracting any cash from the ower, are being exchanged at market value, thus transferring cash via an intermediary (OWS) from a donor to the lender. This results in a non-cash accounting change for the ower and a boon for the lender. Economic activity is boosted if the lender's investment/consumption is more sensible than the donor's - ower does not figure into the algebra. This is likely to be stimulative if the lender's marginal propensity to save excluding risk investing is low.

If these are performing loans, on the other hand, the donor is, via OWS, acting as a market maker for the lender, providing them with liquidity/immediacy while granting the ower cash flow. This is like a stimulus payment to the ower (provided they consume the extra cash flow or invest it in risk assets). It's also a bail-out to the lender.

This is structurally identical to the Federal Reserve buying banks' assets, e.g. loans, and Washington increasing high-velocity fiscal spending. OWS's plan has the downside of being market distorting (via moral hazard) while the prior is less so (Fed's buying activity can be distorting if not done properly or if amped up to supplement Congressional inaction).

I came here expecting to chastise this but, economically speaking, it's a better use of surplus savings than having them sit idly in the money markets. It is, though, worse than building things, funding research, or helping feed starving children. Kudos, still, for beating par (the money markets).

Re: The People's Bailout

#78
post #25

For the benefit of folks who might not understand how debt collection works, which may include OWS: if you buy $10,000 of an individual's debt for $500 and then forgive the debt, they have just incurred income of $10,000 and are obligated to pay taxes on it exactly as if you had handed them $10,000 in cash for services rendered. If you don't inform the IRS that you forgave the debt, via a 1099-C, you're going to get…

I'm just thinking out loud here, but I would suspect that the IRS would only know that the debt was forgiven if the debt owner wrote the debt off as a loss on their taxes. If they simply hold it and do nothing, even if they deleted it from your credit record (which they can do), no taxable event would have occurred. I could be wrong in this crazy country of ours, but I believe there is no law requiring a debt owner t…

I'm not 100% sure, but I'd be completely shocked if the banks and credit card companies (or whoever) that sell the debt didn't have to report the sale to some government agency, or even the IRS itself, so the IRS could probably find out that way.

And now that OWS has announced they're buying up debt and forgiving it, the IRS is going to have a pretty good idea what's going on...

Re: The People's Bailout

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may sound harsh, but medical attention isn't free, and crossing that street without medical insurance and getting hit by a car and accepting expensive treatment you can't pay for is still incurring debt which you are obligated to pay back. This is why insurance of all forms exists; to protect us from expensive, catastrophic events. So as far as fault goes, you are very much to blame if you take risks and choose…

The difference in opinion usually winds up being, one party believes medical attention is a basic human right and should be free for everyone. The other party does not.

It's never free. Somebody has to pay for it.
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