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Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

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Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#421
post #2

A very similar development is going on in neighboring Finland. There are schools that use almost exclusively paper books (instead of digital ones) again. The overall consensus among parents is that books are way better than screens for kids, all the way up to high school. Hand-writing and free drawing with pen and paper provide many advantages to fixed screens. You cannot open a new tab to Youtube in a book. The sign…

> A very similar development is going on in neighboring Finland.

Same in neighbouring Norway. Hi, neighbour! :)

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not see the point of either of your examples of rote learning. What do you lose if you do not know the? You will pick up enough of multiplication tables through doing maths, native speakers of a language will conjugate correctly without memorising (you do need to do it if learning foreign languages). Anaphora is a technique which cannot really be rote learned - and most people to try to use it do so badly and ju…

> You will pick up enough of multiplication tables through doing maths You will not do maths casually until you have memorized enough multiplication to make it not torture. You will not pick up multiplication from using a calculator any more than you will pick up programming from using a computer. > native speakers of a language will conjugate correctly without memorising They do not. They have memorized , through ma…

Both observably false. I know people who are counter examples.

Doing maths is not torture if you do not know multiplication tables if you have a calculator.

Native speakers of a language do not memorise conjugations through forced practice, they memorise through hearing them repeatedly from others.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#423
I love how entire cohorts of students across a country are used in education experiments!

America dropped the "phoneme, sound it out" of decades past and taught students to recognise word "shapes" and learn what they said. It was a complete, and total failure. Children did not learn to read.

What never comes up in the news is the absolutely crazy approach to rolling this out..... "Amazing new education idea is here! We're all doing it!"...... 8 years later, school graduates fail at X, Y, Z BECAUSE of that amazing idea.

There's no accountability, no recompense. Just a news article saying "5% graduate this year! Oh no! Education is terrible!".. papering over the accountability.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#424
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably prompting skills like https://github.com/califio/publications/blob/main/MADBugs/CV...

Are these supposed to be the "skilled" prompts? This just reads as a basic conversation and not as particularly well-written or well-defined prompts. So far everything I've seen about prompting "skills" has just come down to being able to articulate and critically think a bit.

Yeah, my post was kind of sarcastic and it doesn't show.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#425

I love how entire cohorts of students across a country are used in education experiments! America dropped the "phoneme, sound it out" of decades past and taught students to recognise word "shapes" and learn what they said. It was a complete, and total failure. Children did not learn to read. What never comes up in the news is the absolutely crazy approach to rolling this out..... "Amazing new education idea is here!…

You make it sound like there is an obvious solution to this. So what is it? No changes ever? Make 20 year experiments before rolling out any change at scale? Hold decision makers personally accountable for billions of GDP loss? Compensate the cohort monetarily for the generational inconvenience?

For some things there just is no easy way.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#426

I love how entire cohorts of students across a country are used in education experiments! America dropped the "phoneme, sound it out" of decades past and taught students to recognise word "shapes" and learn what they said. It was a complete, and total failure. Children did not learn to read. What never comes up in the news is the absolutely crazy approach to rolling this out..... "Amazing new education idea is here!…

You make it sound like there is an obvious solution to this. So what is it? No changes ever? Make 20 year experiments before rolling out any change at scale? Hold decision makers personally accountable for billions of GDP loss? Compensate the cohort monetarily for the generational inconvenience? For some things there just is no easy way.

[deleted]

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#427
post #220

Buying a book made of trees is very often much more expensive than reading on a screen. Worldreader provides books for free for schools in Africa where they only need to pay for a $40 phone once instead of spending money on books. https://www.worldreader.org/

Laptops and tables are, as it turns out, not so cheap either. They need to be fixed or replaced at an alarming rate, and they lay claim to a much larger part of a school budget than books ever did. That is part of the reason that we revert back to pen, paper and books in Norway. First for 1-4 grade, but it will be push further up the grades as we go, I think.

Yeah this is for extremely poor schools where children share one phone between them. But compared to buying books for every subject that very soon wear out and become obsolete, this has basically no cost.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#429

I love how entire cohorts of students across a country are used in education experiments! America dropped the "phoneme, sound it out" of decades past and taught students to recognise word "shapes" and learn what they said. It was a complete, and total failure. Children did not learn to read. What never comes up in the news is the absolutely crazy approach to rolling this out..... "Amazing new education idea is here!…

You make it sound like there is an obvious solution to this. So what is it? No changes ever? Make 20 year experiments before rolling out any change at scale? Hold decision makers personally accountable for billions of GDP loss? Compensate the cohort monetarily for the generational inconvenience? For some things there just is no easy way.

Err, no, it's actually really easy. Just give them a choice in the matter first. You do realize you're arguing for toying with people's futures based merely on effectively unproven methods because you just feel like doing it? Futures that have inherent value because the people being toyed with are inherently valuable too. But no, it's totally fine to not be held accountable for your actions. I mean, what's the real damage done here? Think about how expensive it'd be, or, or, how long it'd take if not! That surely justifies just going to town on people, right? :/

That's essentially what you're arguing. Perhaps not what you intended, but it is what it becomes given the context, and more importantly, the people involved that you disregard so callously.

If it's so darned expensive to do, have you considered that you have the free will and intellectual sophistication required to just . . . not do it? If it'd be so expensive to recuperate a group of people, either your methods have too high a probability of requiring it or your method is just perhaps not ready yet if the potential end result are that disastrously bad. Either way, it points towards going back to the drawing board instead of to town.

But if it's oh so difficult to get these studies done, you know what you can do? You can do it over longer periods of time, just like you bemoan, because that larger time scale will stop you from ruining other people for your own curiosity of will x work in y. You could give people the choice to join the study, you could have smaller cohorts every time and refine the process as you go, you could keep each cohort limited to a year or two to avoid long-term damage, and you could test in different age ranges to get more data.

The list goes on and on and on. Almost like studies on people require larger caution than just testing to see what works without any precautions and going from there. When learning about the scientific method, the idea that people are, you know, people and not test subjects is pushed constantly. Because certain people sadly need that reinforced to avoid being callous researchers. It's oh so easy to forget the numbers you toy with are real lives with real value regardless of what is done with those lives.

We trade immediate results and dubiously better efficiency for larger time spans exactly so that we can ensure the people in them remain protected. Giving people choice in the matter, and letting guardians weigh the value proposition (like other studies have done successfully) by giving them the prerequisite information required to make those decisions, allows for a higher likelyhood of avoiding disasterous effects on those very same people. It's not "generational inconvenience" when lives are affected for multitudes of years; it's callous impatience. It's not "no change ever," is respect for the people involved in attempting those changes and respect for the potential ramifications of those changes. It's borderline evil to disregard people because you, and I do mean you here, don't have the patience to ensure people's safety because, oh no, it'll take a while, or cost a lot if you're held accountable.

Rather, it's okay that things take time, it's wanted that we don't make haste. Because haste makes waste. Because we don't need immediate results. Because we're not working with machines, we're working with the single most valuable thing we have on this earth; a human life. Have some compassion for those people, and you'll find that change doesn't take so long after all.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound like there is an obvious solution to this. So what is it? No changes ever? Make 20 year experiments before rolling out any change at scale? Hold decision makers personally accountable for billions of GDP loss? Compensate the cohort monetarily for the generational inconvenience? For some things there just is no easy way.

Err, no, it's actually really easy. Just give them a choice in the matter first. You do realize you're arguing for toying with people's futures based merely on effectively unproven methods because you just feel like doing it? Futures that have inherent value because the people being toyed with are inherently valuable too. But no, it's totally fine to not be held accountable for your actions. I mean, what's the real d…

That's a lot of words reiterating how intensely important the matter is. I agree, it is. But your suggestions are either doing nothing out of caution, vast fragmentation, or too small numbers to really see the effects at scale.

Mostly it's a question of middle ground for an acceptable scale of decision, but "only change something if we know for a fact it's purely beneficial" is not a realistic plan no matter how intensely important the matter is. At some point decisions have to be made.

This is one of the things that becomes harder and more entrenched the worse those decisions are democratically legitimated. I think it's not unlikely that the difference in expectations between us boils down to a general different level of trust in authority.

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