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Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

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Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#271

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #12
gritspants wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the advantage of learning 'AI workflows'. I am in the US and there seems to be a FOMO plague infecting our school system when it comes to technology. In practice it seems more destructive to the child.

I don't think they need to learn 'AI workflows' (whatever that means). But I think it makes sense to use the LLM's as a resource. I've used them when studying new languages (human languages not programming languages) and ML algorithms and they've been really useful. Learning to check the citations it gives you is a useful skill too. I wish many adults were more sceptical about the things they are told.

I assume "AI workflows" means knowing how to split up a task to create a chain of agents that can complete a specific task reliably.

A bit like software development.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#272

Post by dathinab »

ninalanyon wrote: post #231
fasterik wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. I think we should use tech in education, but in a targeted way. It's important that children gain basic technical literacy, like how to touch type and use basic software. I suspect there is a gap in the technical literacy of lower income students, whose parents are less likely to have a computer at home. The real problem is separating reading/writing…

> how to touch type What for? I've been writing computer programs and documentation since 1969 and I can't touch type. I've never felt enough pressure to do it. I can still type faster than I can think. When I'm writing most of my time is spent thinking not tapping the keys.

> touch type

can even be harmful

IFF we interpret "touch typing" as the typical thought typing method and not just "typing without looking at the keyboard".

In general key arrangement traces back to physical limitations of type writers not ergonomics and layout choice isn't exactly ergonomic based either.

But even if it where, the biggest issue of touch typing is that it's often thought around the idea of your hands being somewhat orthogonal to your keyboard, _which they never should be_ (if you use a typical keyboard on a typcal desk setup) as it leads to angling you hands/wrist which is nearly guaranteed to cause you health issues long term if you are typing a lot.

The simple solution is to keep your wrist straight leading to using the keyboard in a way where you hand is at an angle to it's layout instead of orthogonal which in turn inhibits perfect touch typing. But still allows something close to it.

As keys are arranged in shifted columns this kinda works surprisingly well, an issue is the angle differs depending on left/right hand :/

Split or alice style keyboards can also help a bit, but I often feel man designs kinda miss the point. Especially many supposedly ergonomic keyboards aren't aren't really that ergonomic, especially if your hand is to large, small, or otherwise unusual...

Which brings us to the next point, human autonomy varies a lot, some people have just some very touch typing incompatible hands, like very short pinky fingers making that finger unusable for typical touch typing (even with normal hands it's a bit suboptimal which is why some keyboards shift the outer rows down by half a row).

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#274

Post by weslleyskah »

pier25 wrote: post #199

I worked in EdTech about a decade ago and our education/pedagogy experts were already talking about this. They also talked a lot about how handwriting is super important for cognitive development. After working on that company for a couple of years I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. One of the reasons I left. In a decade or two the long term consequences of inundating kids with tech an…

Tech can save you from a bad educational environment. I think kids need extreme amounts of freedom with guidance on what are the best tools to be used for learning. From visualizing linear algebra and analytic geometry problems to piracy. If anything, the teachers need to improve their tech literacy.

There is no way to be done away with tech on school, but some balance and freedom must be achieved.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#275

Post by liveoneggs »

kpw94 wrote: post #255
fasterik wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. I think we should use tech in education, but in a targeted way. It's important that children gain basic technical literacy, like how to touch type and use basic software. I suspect there is a gap in the technical literacy of lower income students, whose parents are less likely to have a computer at home. The real problem is separating reading/writing…

That's not using tech that you're describing here. You're talking about literally learning some basic computer skills (such as word processor, excel, reading email, some basic website building, use printer, and some amount of programming) For those, obviously you need a computer and completely agree that those are important skills to learn... But you maybe need to spend 1h/week during last 2 years of middle school on…

what's funny is that they don't even teach basic tech literacy but just rely on kids to figure it out!

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#276

Post by dtdynasty »

pier25 wrote: post #199

I worked in EdTech about a decade ago and our education/pedagogy experts were already talking about this. They also talked a lot about how handwriting is super important for cognitive development. After working on that company for a couple of years I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. One of the reasons I left. In a decade or two the long term consequences of inundating kids with tech an…

I do think the general purpose screens of today are doing a disservice for education. There are too many possible distractions a child isn't prepared to resist yet. But it could enable more advanced workflow for personalized learning.

I think the k-shaped economy where some people are financially succeeding while the rest go through hardship is a reflection of a k-shaped education system where those who are able to ignore the distractions and succeed are doing well. The top of the k can use more edtech as they just need tools for further educational attainment. Things modern edtech can bring. The bottom of the k has different needs.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#277

Post by Barrin92 »

qurren wrote: post #239
pier25 wrote: post #199

I worked in EdTech about a decade ago and our education/pedagogy experts were already talking about this. They also talked a lot about how handwriting is super important for cognitive development. After working on that company for a couple of years I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. One of the reasons I left. In a decade or two the long term consequences of inundating kids with tech an…

> They also talked a lot about how handwriting is super important for cognitive development. Is it possible that there are alternative ways than handwriting for cognitive development? Probably in 500 BC they said you had to hack at stone with a chisel for cognitive development, and then someone invented the pen and paper. The difference is the task had to change as well. People were able to write thousands of pages (…

>Is it possible that there are alternative ways than handwriting for cognitive development?

there are countless of ways to develop fine motor skills, but handwriting replacing a chisel was not a step down because handwriting is a demanding task in contrast to the, by nature, impoverished interaction with digital rather than analog devices. I help in a maker-space and you can literally tell young people apart who only ever interacted with a phone compared to kids who play an instrument, work with tools etc.

Additionally a pen and paper come cheap compared to a tablet. It was always the perfect example of a kind of "digitalism". "oh we're so cool, we use technology, let's give everyone tablets, we're a modern country". Just expensive nonsense in the absence of educational standards and physical development.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#278

Post by willio58 »

gritspants wrote: post #4
smatti wrote: post #2

A very similar development is going on in neighboring Finland. There are schools that use almost exclusively paper books (instead of digital ones) again. The overall consensus among parents is that books are way better than screens for kids, all the way up to high school. Hand-writing and free drawing with pen and paper provide many advantages to fixed screens. You cannot open a new tab to Youtube in a book. The sign…

I don't see the advantage of learning 'AI workflows'. I am in the US and there seems to be a FOMO plague infecting our school system when it comes to technology. In practice it seems more destructive to the child.

Had a buddy who works at a prestigious university teaching film history tell me their big boss is basically forcing all classes including his ones on film history to incorporate AI education in some way. So silly.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#280

Post by dathinab »

datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #237
ninalanyon wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how to touch type What for? I've been writing computer programs and documentation since 1969 and I can't touch type. I've never felt enough pressure to do it. I can still type faster than I can think. When I'm writing most of my time is spent thinking not tapping the keys.

You typed out this message by hitting individual keys as your eyes searched for them? Isn’t that mentally exhausting?

In many cases the understanding of the term "touch typing" isn't just "typing without looking" but a very specific way of doing so.

You should be able to type without looking at your keyboard.

But the specific 5 finger arrangement taught often as "tough typing" isn't needed for that, some common issues:

- it being taught with an orthogonal arrangement of your hand to they keyboard, that is nearly guaranteed to lead to carpal tunnel syndrome if you have a typical keyboard/desk setup. Don't angle your wrist when typing.

- Pinky fingers of "average" hands already have issues reaching the right rows, with extra small or extra short hands they often aren't usable as intended with touch typing.

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