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Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

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Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#111

Post by _casperc »

king_jester wrote: post #101
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with affirmative action is that it is based on race. It is racist. In fact it isn't just based on race, it is based on skin colour - since some mixed black-white people with white skin can be discriminated against. America needs to put race on the sidelines and start thinking in terms of class. You should help the disadvantaged or poor regardless of their great great grandparent's struggles. Affirmative a…

You do realize that race and class are heavily intersectional, right? That rates of poverty are higher for non-whites, right? Also, helping people who are affected by institutional racism is not racist, it is an attempt to correct for existing racism.

You are not helping people because of their race, so why use that to select who gets help? There are rich black people as well as there are poor white people.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#112

Post by JoeAltmaier »

drharris wrote: post #73
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IT was more than a correlation. He traced the connection. What has bedrock to do with New York voters? I'd be interested to hear that story.

Exactly, it's a story at best. The article claims that Plankton -> Soil -> Slaves -> Black People don't move -> Obama support. The first 2 connections are obvious, but the second two do not necessarily connect in any rational way. It's like saying Bedrock -> Highrises -> ???? -> Obama. The first connection works, but the other two would be pure speculation at best.

You read it as more than a storey. Ok.

What's mysterious about people staying in the same place for generations? My people have been in Iowa since the Civil War too.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#113

Post by UnoriginalGuy »

king_jester wrote: post #101
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with affirmative action is that it is based on race. It is racist. In fact it isn't just based on race, it is based on skin colour - since some mixed black-white people with white skin can be discriminated against. America needs to put race on the sidelines and start thinking in terms of class. You should help the disadvantaged or poor regardless of their great great grandparent's struggles. Affirmative a…

You do realize that race and class are heavily intersectional, right? That rates of poverty are higher for non-whites, right? Also, helping people who are affected by institutional racism is not racist, it is an attempt to correct for existing racism.

Even if everything you say is true (that some races are poorer than other races) how does that counter what I said?

The strategy I'm talking about gives to poor and disadvantaged people regardless of their race, so if a ton of blacks are poor then they will receive the majority of the benefits.

But as an additional benefit middle and upper class minorities won't get advantages they don't need. You also won't require people to "prove" their ethnicity to be granted these benefits (or discriminated against because they aren't for example "black enough").

Here is a fun question: Exactly how black do you have to be to get affirmative action right now? Do they have like a colour wheel? How does that even work?

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#114

Post by grannyg00se »

king_jester wrote: post #101
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with affirmative action is that it is based on race. It is racist. In fact it isn't just based on race, it is based on skin colour - since some mixed black-white people with white skin can be discriminated against. America needs to put race on the sidelines and start thinking in terms of class. You should help the disadvantaged or poor regardless of their great great grandparent's struggles. Affirmative a…

You do realize that race and class are heavily intersectional, right? That rates of poverty are higher for non-whites, right? Also, helping people who are affected by institutional racism is not racist, it is an attempt to correct for existing racism.

It is racist by the fact that it is based on race. Worse, it continues to reinforce thinking along racial lines rather than circumstancial ones thus perpetuating the idea that we should classify based on race. It would be much better to stop saying "you get this because you are this colour" and start saying "you get this because it looks like you could use a hand."

Racism exists, but trying to fight it with more racism is not going to help reduce the focus on race, and until people stop identifying race as a good way to classify a human, racism won't go away.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#116

Post by Karunamon »

king_jester wrote: post #108
Karunamon wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The idea of "reverse racism" is baloney, and I can explain that opinion further if necessary. I'd be interested in that explanation. Combatting discrimination by allowing discrimination by or for minorities seems like pushing the pendulum too far back in the other direction. Isn't the idea equality? Having everyone playing by the same rules regardless of race? Example (in my own home state, no less) For jobs offered…

You cannot create institutional and systemic racism against white people. White is the cultural norm in the US: everything is default to white perspective and whiteness is considered the most desireable state. Even if a minority treats an individual white person badly, that white person can typically walk away from that encounter without being affected, nor have that sentiment compounded by society at large every day…

>..that white person can typically walk away from that encounter without being affected

Meaning, what? I'm not "affected" because I have to deal with someone who, say, hates white people?

>Yes, but the rules are not evenly applied.

Aha. Sounds like the problem is here. The laws we have need to be applied correctly, instead of inventing new and questionable ones.

>The only thing wrong here is your sentiment.

Any "sentiment" you see is purely of your own invention. I mentioned a fact (namely an ad in a newspaper), and asked how that is not wrong. Discrimination is wrong, regardless of the race of the person doing it.

Put another way, the cure to discrimination is not more discrimination, and it's frankly idiotic to assume that it is.

I'm beginning to think race discussions are becoming the new religious discussions. People are incapable of discussing it without moralizing, preaching, or talking down.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#117

Post by UnoriginalGuy »

rayiner wrote: post #110
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with affirmative action is that it is based on race. It is racist. In fact it isn't just based on race, it is based on skin colour - since some mixed black-white people with white skin can be discriminated against. America needs to put race on the sidelines and start thinking in terms of class. You should help the disadvantaged or poor regardless of their great great grandparent's struggles. Affirmative a…

The justification and rationale for race-based affirmative action is somewhat different from anything favoring people of low socioeconomic class generally. It has to do with correcting specific and massive historical wrongs in which our government was complicit, not lifting up disadvantaged people generally. Conflating the two is a little silly. If I destroy your house, you're not going to be happy if I make amends t…

Let's accept that rational; but that does leave one question: when does this end? If we have no way to measure the damage then how do we measure the resolution of the damage? Do we continue this for 5, 10, 50, 100, 500 years? Or do we simply never end it?

Do we try to "correct" it so there are literally no poor people of a particular ethnicity? How realistic is that?

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#118

Post by mtoddh »

ajross wrote: post #96
jivatmanx wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't we just try to remedy those ills directly? Why does there need to be an association with race? I'm not denying that these are a result of the U.S's past action, and that we have a responsibility to fix them, but I have doubts that associating them with race is necessary or helpful in any way.

OK, what's your solution? Affirmative action is a bandaid, and its effects are at best poorly distributed. But it actually works to reduce ethnic imbalance, and most people (I assume you too) agree that's a good thing. You have an alternative to suggest that doesn't have equivalent problems? Just recognize that (I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume) that, because you are a middle class white man, probably 90…

Just recognize that (I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume) that, because you are a middle class white man, probably 90% of the reason you oppose "affirmative action" is because it negatively impacts your own demographic group.

Arguments for or against AA aside, this line of reasoning, where you invalidate somebody's argument based on what demographic group they belong to (white middle class males in this case), really seems like a simple ad hominem argument. You're no longer addressing what is said - only who is saying it.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#119

Post by njharman »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #89
rayiner wrote: post #41

I think this is a great answer to people who ask why we still need things like affirmative action. Here you have a continuing demographic phenomenon that can be traced directly back to slave ownership patterns hundreds of years ago. It should be noted also that the black belt is also a terribly poor stretch of the country. Unfortunately, it appears that socioeconomic patterns are imprinted more deeply than anyone wou…

The problem with affirmative action is that it is based on race. It is racist. In fact it isn't just based on race, it is based on skin colour - since some mixed black-white people with white skin can be discriminated against. America needs to put race on the sidelines and start thinking in terms of class. You should help the disadvantaged or poor regardless of their great great grandparent's struggles. Affirmative a…

It's based on history. It's a tangential detail that that history victimized people of certain skin colors.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#120

Post by MordinSolus »

ajross wrote: post #107
jivatmanx wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I have said, the alternative is affirmative action for the poor in general. Medicaid, Food Stamps, and other social programs don't discriminate based on race, but certainly have that effect where there is larger poverty among African-Americans. What would be the advantage of basing them on race? I'm questioning the best way to achieve the economic effect that we agree on, reducing racial inequality, in the same wa…

It sounds like you simply don't understand what affirmative action is. It's not welfare. You're seriously saying we should give out slots on boards of directors to people on food stamps ? AA doesn't correct for immediate need, it corrects for the fact that people growing up in unpriviledged environments lack advantages. So they have to work a job instead of going to a test prep class. They go to schools with high tea…

> AA doesn't correct for immediate need, it corrects for the fact that people growing up in unpriviledged environments lack advantages.

So poor white folks never grow up in unpriviledged environments?

You're providing no justification for why AA is race based instead of socio-economic based.

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