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Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

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Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#101

Post by king_jester »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #89
rayiner wrote: post #41

I think this is a great answer to people who ask why we still need things like affirmative action. Here you have a continuing demographic phenomenon that can be traced directly back to slave ownership patterns hundreds of years ago. It should be noted also that the black belt is also a terribly poor stretch of the country. Unfortunately, it appears that socioeconomic patterns are imprinted more deeply than anyone wou…

The problem with affirmative action is that it is based on race. It is racist. In fact it isn't just based on race, it is based on skin colour - since some mixed black-white people with white skin can be discriminated against. America needs to put race on the sidelines and start thinking in terms of class. You should help the disadvantaged or poor regardless of their great great grandparent's struggles. Affirmative a…

You do realize that race and class are heavily intersectional, right? That rates of poverty are higher for non-whites, right? Also, helping people who are affected by institutional racism is not racist, it is an attempt to correct for existing racism.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#103

Post by jivatmanx »

ajross wrote: post #96
jivatmanx wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't we just try to remedy those ills directly? Why does there need to be an association with race? I'm not denying that these are a result of the U.S's past action, and that we have a responsibility to fix them, but I have doubts that associating them with race is necessary or helpful in any way.

OK, what's your solution? Affirmative action is a bandaid, and its effects are at best poorly distributed. But it actually works to reduce ethnic imbalance, and most people (I assume you too) agree that's a good thing. You have an alternative to suggest that doesn't have equivalent problems? Just recognize that (I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume) that, because you are a middle class white man, probably 90…

As I have said, the alternative is affirmative action for the poor in general.

Medicaid, Food Stamps, and other social programs don't discriminate based on race, but certainly have that effect where there is larger poverty among African-Americans. What would be the advantage of basing them on race?

I'm questioning the best way to achieve the economic effect that we agree on, reducing racial inequality, in the same way that I question if Carbon credits are the best way to reduce emissions (simply taxing fossil fuels, I believe.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#104

Post by haberman »

rabid_fish wrote: post #54
brudgers wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iowa is where Obama upset the presumptive nominee, Hillary Clinton four years ago. It is overwhelmingly made up of a constituencies which tend to vote Republican. Not only did he win the caucuses, he flipped the state in the general election and carried it by a substantial margin in his reelection. If you ever go to Iowa, you won't see many people likely to vote for Obama on the basis of racial affinity.

I can't help but reply to this thread. I grew up in L.A., came to Iowa for college and stayed. Am now in my late 30's. Was not affiliated with any party when I caucused for Obama the first go 'round. Iowa is an interesting political crossroads for the nation. We have a large percentage of the population above 65 - 15% ( http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-09.pdf ) - and still rural - 36% as of 2010 ( ht…

Obligatory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLZZ6JD0g9Y

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#105

Post by mkr-hn »

ajross wrote: post #96
jivatmanx wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't we just try to remedy those ills directly? Why does there need to be an association with race? I'm not denying that these are a result of the U.S's past action, and that we have a responsibility to fix them, but I have doubts that associating them with race is necessary or helpful in any way.

OK, what's your solution? Affirmative action is a bandaid, and its effects are at best poorly distributed. But it actually works to reduce ethnic imbalance, and most people (I assume you too) agree that's a good thing. You have an alternative to suggest that doesn't have equivalent problems? Just recognize that (I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume) that, because you are a middle class white man, probably 90…

It seems like privilege is more transparent the more you have.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#106

Post by alexanderh »

rmc wrote: post #98
jivatmanx wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't we just try to remedy those ills directly? Why does there need to be an association with race? I'm not denying that these are a result of the U.S's past action, and that we have a responsibility to fix them, but I have doubts that associating them with race is necessary or helpful in any way.

Why can't we just try to remedy those ills directly? Why does there need to be an association with race? Because targeting based on race is a simple and effective way to target these ills. Race is often strongly correlated with these problems.

Yes but not all African American's are disadvantaged. But all disadvantaged people are disadvantaged.

Why not make laws to simply help the disadvantaged? Why does race have to be the indicator, even if its a pretty good one? Why cant income be the indicator? It seems like it would be at least as accurate, if not more so... and no need to bring race into it.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#107

Post by ajross »

jivatmanx wrote: post #103
ajross wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, what's your solution? Affirmative action is a bandaid, and its effects are at best poorly distributed. But it actually works to reduce ethnic imbalance, and most people (I assume you too) agree that's a good thing. You have an alternative to suggest that doesn't have equivalent problems? Just recognize that (I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume) that, because you are a middle class white man, probably 90…

As I have said, the alternative is affirmative action for the poor in general. Medicaid, Food Stamps, and other social programs don't discriminate based on race, but certainly have that effect where there is larger poverty among African-Americans. What would be the advantage of basing them on race? I'm questioning the best way to achieve the economic effect that we agree on, reducing racial inequality, in the same wa…

It sounds like you simply don't understand what affirmative action is. It's not welfare. You're seriously saying we should give out slots on boards of directors to people on food stamps?

AA doesn't correct for immediate need, it corrects for the fact that people growing up in unpriviledged environments lack advantages. So they have to work a job instead of going to a test prep class. They go to schools with high teacher turnover and poor class selection. They live in social environments with high crime. So they don't get into the "right" colleges, and they don't get the great jobs.

At what spot on that chain would your "make AA like food stamps" idea actually work? You're not even addressing the problem.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#108

Post by king_jester »

Karunamon wrote: post #94
shantanubala wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> undo bad things that happened long ago with other injustices First, you are implying that affirmative action is unjust, which it is not . Affirmative action does not mean that an unqualified worker replaces a qualified worker because of race. Affirmative action means that equally qualified workers are then selected to be as representative of the population as possible. This has the added benefit of making sure civi…

>The idea of "reverse racism" is baloney, and I can explain that opinion further if necessary. I'd be interested in that explanation. Combatting discrimination by allowing discrimination by or for minorities seems like pushing the pendulum too far back in the other direction. Isn't the idea equality? Having everyone playing by the same rules regardless of race? Example (in my own home state, no less) For jobs offered…

You cannot create institutional and systemic racism against white people. White is the cultural norm in the US: everything is default to white perspective and whiteness is considered the most desireable state. Even if a minority treats an individual white person badly, that white person can typically walk away from that encounter without being affected, nor have that sentiment compounded by society at large every day of their life. Furthermore, policies like affirmative action recognize how badly minorities have been treated both historically and today, so the policy attempts to make a (small) correction for that imbalance.

> Isn't the idea equality? Having everyone playing by the same rules regardless of race?

Yes, but the rules are not evenly applied. People of color are disproportionately affected by the economic and political systems of the US. We live in a state of unfair treatment for people of color right now, eliminating things like affirmative action will not change that reality.

> Example (in my own home state, no less) For jobs offered on native lands, the advertisements are allowed to say "Indian preference applies" - which means exactly what it sounds like. Isn't this wrong on a number of levels?

The only thing wrong here is your sentiment. It is really clear you have no idea how badly native peoples in the US are treated. Native people are much more often victims of violent crime. Most native populations have been wiped out by colonial settlers, and those that survived have been forced from their homelands. Native territories are forbidden from prosecuting criminals under their own laws, leaving them unable to provide legal protection against violent crimes. Racist attitudes towards native peoples are extremely prevalent and popular culture constantly attempts to assimilate native culture as a perpetuation of the colonial settler genocide of native peoples. Giving a native person a job is the least US society could do, when it should be doing things like returning stolen lands and providing permanent economic support for those native nations that still exist.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#109

Post by mkr-hn »

jivatmanx wrote: post #103
ajross wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, what's your solution? Affirmative action is a bandaid, and its effects are at best poorly distributed. But it actually works to reduce ethnic imbalance, and most people (I assume you too) agree that's a good thing. You have an alternative to suggest that doesn't have equivalent problems? Just recognize that (I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume) that, because you are a middle class white man, probably 90…

As I have said, the alternative is affirmative action for the poor in general. Medicaid, Food Stamps, and other social programs don't discriminate based on race, but certainly have that effect where there is larger poverty among African-Americans. What would be the advantage of basing them on race? I'm questioning the best way to achieve the economic effect that we agree on, reducing racial inequality, in the same wa…

Affirmative action is about dealing with the discrimination in education that often leads to unequal opportunity. How do you deal with the opportunity gap without acknowledging the impacted groups?

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#110

Post by rayiner »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #89
rayiner wrote: post #41

I think this is a great answer to people who ask why we still need things like affirmative action. Here you have a continuing demographic phenomenon that can be traced directly back to slave ownership patterns hundreds of years ago. It should be noted also that the black belt is also a terribly poor stretch of the country. Unfortunately, it appears that socioeconomic patterns are imprinted more deeply than anyone wou…

The problem with affirmative action is that it is based on race. It is racist. In fact it isn't just based on race, it is based on skin colour - since some mixed black-white people with white skin can be discriminated against. America needs to put race on the sidelines and start thinking in terms of class. You should help the disadvantaged or poor regardless of their great great grandparent's struggles. Affirmative a…

The justification and rationale for race-based affirmative action is somewhat different from anything favoring people of low socioeconomic class generally. It has to do with correcting specific and massive historical wrongs in which our government was complicit, not lifting up disadvantaged people generally. Conflating the two is a little silly. If I destroy your house, you're not going to be happy if I make amends through a general program of urban renewal in your neighborhood.

A lot of people don't believe that Americans of today should be liable for the actions of Americans then. But none of us today were alive at the time America consented to the Constitution, just as none of us today were alive at the time America imported millions of blacks into slavery. Yet we are nonetheless bound by the agreement our forefathers made in 1789! The document attesting to that agreement is also the document that protected and enshrined slavery in America for several more generations. I believe we are bound by that too. I believe the government created in that document, which still exists today, is bound by the obligation created by its sanctioning of slavery just as it is bound by treaties entered into at the time or treasury bonds issued at the time.

It is of course impossible to try to remedy all the mistakes of the past. But that doesn't mean it is pointless to try and remedy any mistakes of the past. And this is a big one that still has lasting and major effects today.

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