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Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

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Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#91

Post by clarky07 »

rayiner wrote: post #41

I think this is a great answer to people who ask why we still need things like affirmative action. Here you have a continuing demographic phenomenon that can be traced directly back to slave ownership patterns hundreds of years ago. It should be noted also that the black belt is also a terribly poor stretch of the country. Unfortunately, it appears that socioeconomic patterns are imprinted more deeply than anyone wou…

We just had an African American man elected to his second term as president. We don't need aa anymore. Just stop discriminating. Don't put skin color on applications at all.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#92

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #41

I think this is a great answer to people who ask why we still need things like affirmative action. Here you have a continuing demographic phenomenon that can be traced directly back to slave ownership patterns hundreds of years ago. It should be noted also that the black belt is also a terribly poor stretch of the country. Unfortunately, it appears that socioeconomic patterns are imprinted more deeply than anyone wou…

[deleted]

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#93

Post by loumf »

javert wrote: post #82
mikeash wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (The answer is, you don't.) You do realize that putting words in other people's mouths like this pretty much destroys any chance of having a productive and useful conversation? What is the point of even asking a question that you're sure you already know the answer to?

I would be putting words in someone's mouth if I wrote, "You said X..." when they did not say X, but rather something that I think (rightly or wrongly) implies X. What I did is something different, but I agree that it's not obvious how this is conducive to productive and useful conversation. I know, it looks like I'm just trying to "score points." So, let me explain myself. This kind of dialogue actually is productiv…

You could have conveyed the non-snark by just omitting your parenthetical. Everything before that is totally valid, but the parenthetical invites the kind of reply that doesn't actually move the conversation in the way I think you intended.

(Edit, adding): Also, when you use "", it's much better if you are actually quoting. If not, you are putting words in their mouth.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#94

Post by Karunamon »

shantanubala wrote: post #85
javert wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's effectively the same as what I stated. It's also still not a valid conclusion. For example, you haven't addressed whether it's worth trying to undo bad things that happened long ago with other injustices, as opposed to simply being just from here on out. For another example, you haven't addressed whether it actually works or not. (Those two examples actually are related, because theory and practice actually ar…

> undo bad things that happened long ago with other injustices First, you are implying that affirmative action is unjust, which it is not . Affirmative action does not mean that an unqualified worker replaces a qualified worker because of race. Affirmative action means that equally qualified workers are then selected to be as representative of the population as possible. This has the added benefit of making sure civi…

>The idea of "reverse racism" is baloney, and I can explain that opinion further if necessary.

I'd be interested in that explanation. Combatting discrimination by allowing discrimination by or for minorities seems like pushing the pendulum too far back in the other direction.

Isn't the idea equality? Having everyone playing by the same rules regardless of race?

Example (in my own home state, no less) For jobs offered on native lands, the advertisements are allowed to say "Indian preference applies" - which means exactly what it sounds like. Isn't this wrong on a number of levels?

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#96

Post by ajross »

jivatmanx wrote: post #83
shantanubala wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I agree with you, I get the impression that someone who doesn't think affirmative action should exist even after learning about the gang violence, intense poverty, substance abuse, neglect, and trauma that surrounds children growing up in housing projects and "bad neighborhoods" -- even after all of that, if someone still says no, then you could probably trace this back to the Big Bang and they'll still say…

Why can't we just try to remedy those ills directly? Why does there need to be an association with race? I'm not denying that these are a result of the U.S's past action, and that we have a responsibility to fix them, but I have doubts that associating them with race is necessary or helpful in any way.

OK, what's your solution? Affirmative action is a bandaid, and its effects are at best poorly distributed. But it actually works to reduce ethnic imbalance, and most people (I assume you too) agree that's a good thing.

You have an alternative to suggest that doesn't have equivalent problems?

Just recognize that (I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume) that, because you are a middle class white man, probably 90% of the reason you oppose "affirmative action" is because it negatively impacts your own demographic group. Well, sorry. We're in a priviledged group; get over it.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#97

Post by rmc »

bdunbar wrote: post #67
shantanubala wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I agree with you, I get the impression that someone who doesn't think affirmative action should exist even after learning about the gang violence, intense poverty, substance abuse, neglect, and trauma that surrounds children growing up in housing projects and "bad neighborhoods" -- even after all of that, if someone still says no, then you could probably trace this back to the Big Bang and they'll still say…

The problems you mention were not problems until after affirmative action was implemented.

You mean there was no extreme poverty amoung marginalized groups before affirmative action?

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#98

Post by rmc »

jivatmanx wrote: post #83
shantanubala wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I agree with you, I get the impression that someone who doesn't think affirmative action should exist even after learning about the gang violence, intense poverty, substance abuse, neglect, and trauma that surrounds children growing up in housing projects and "bad neighborhoods" -- even after all of that, if someone still says no, then you could probably trace this back to the Big Bang and they'll still say…

Why can't we just try to remedy those ills directly? Why does there need to be an association with race? I'm not denying that these are a result of the U.S's past action, and that we have a responsibility to fix them, but I have doubts that associating them with race is necessary or helpful in any way.

Why can't we just try to remedy those ills directly? Why does there need to be an association with race?

Because targeting based on race is a simple and effective way to target these ills. Race is often strongly correlated with these problems.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#99

Post by newbie12 »

rayiner wrote: post #41

I think this is a great answer to people who ask why we still need things like affirmative action. Here you have a continuing demographic phenomenon that can be traced directly back to slave ownership patterns hundreds of years ago. It should be noted also that the black belt is also a terribly poor stretch of the country. Unfortunately, it appears that socioeconomic patterns are imprinted more deeply than anyone wou…

Yet, today more blacks live in New York state than any other, so this pattern isn't unbreakable. The southern black belt's problems can be addressed through regional policy rather than more government racism.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#100

Post by Karunamon »

stickfigure wrote: post #84
Karunamon wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You started from the wrong conclusion. The proper way is "patterns ingrained tens, hundreds, thousands of years ago can show tangible effects even in 2012" to "the concept of affirmative action is sound".

The historic chinatowns of San Francisco, New York, and LA are still predominantly populated with ethnic Chinese. At a bigger scale: China is still predominantly populated with ethnic Chinese. I'm not sure what conclusions you can reasonably draw from this, especially WRT affirmative action.

Ethnic Chinese in China were not subject to systematic oppression like blacks in the USA not even a century ago. That is a pattern, and it has far reaching effects.
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