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ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

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Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#381

Post by remus »

PunchyHamster wrote: post #256
nikitaga wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scraping static content from a website at near-zero marginal cost to its server, vs scraping an expensive LLM service provided for free, are different things. The former relies on fairly controversial ideas about copyright and fair use to qualify as abuse, whereas the latter is direct financial damage – by your own direct competitors no less. It's fun to poke at a seeming hypocrisy of the big bad, but the similarity…

> Scraping static content from a website at near-zero marginal cost to its server, vs scraping an expensive LLM service provided for free, are different things. I bet people being fucking DDOSed by AI bots disagree Also the fucking ignorance assuming it's "static content" and not something needing code running

I think the parent is just pointing out that these things lie on a spectrum. I have a website that consists largely of static content and the (significant) scraping which occurs doesn't impact the site for general users so I don't mind (and means I get good, up to date answers from LLMs on the niche topic my site covers). If it did have an impact on real users, or cost me significant money, I would feel pretty differently.

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#382

Post by xeyownt »

magicseth wrote: post #99
0x3f wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meet me in a cafe and I will sign a JWT saying you're not a bot. You can submit this to whoever will accept it.

If apple approves it, ive got a solution: A keyboardthat attests to your humanity https://typed.by/magicseth/2451#2NyGLfAQxmqRiAOTlaX7ma3G4d1o...

Why 256-bit key AES? It brings nothing but longer key. 128-bit is more than enough. Please don't mention PQC :fire:

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#383

Post by expedition32 »

sandeepkd wrote: post #277
nikitaga wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scraping static content from a website at near-zero marginal cost to its server, vs scraping an expensive LLM service provided for free, are different things. The former relies on fairly controversial ideas about copyright and fair use to qualify as abuse, whereas the latter is direct financial damage – by your own direct competitors no less. It's fun to poke at a seeming hypocrisy of the big bad, but the similarity…

Lets not try to qualify the wrongs by picking a metric and evaluating just one side of it. A static website owner could be running with a very small budget and the scraping from bots can bring down their business too. The chances of a static website owner burning through their own life savings are probably higher.

Perhaps the long play is to destroy all small hobby websites until only a AI directed web is left.

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#384

Post by foresterre »

tedsanders wrote: post #377
littlestymaar wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they know it's bad, they just don't think the rules apply to them.

For what it's worth, the big AI companies do have opt out mechanisms for scraping and search. OpenAI documents how to opt out of scraping here: https://developers.openai.com/api/docs/bots Anthropic documents how to opt out of scraping here: https://privacy.claude.com/en/articles/8896518-does-anthropi... I'm not sure if Gemini lets you opt out without also delisting you from Google search rankings.

I think opt-outs are a bit backwards, ethically speaking. Instead of asking for permission, they take unless you tell them to no longer do it from now on.

I can imagine their models have been trained on a lot of websites before opt outs became a thing, and the models will probably incorporate that for forever.

But at least for websites there's an opt-out, even if only for the big AI companies. Open source code never even got that option ;).

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#385

Post by expedition32 »

wolvoleo wrote: post #343
nikitaga wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scraping static content from a website at near-zero marginal cost to its server, vs scraping an expensive LLM service provided for free, are different things. The former relies on fairly controversial ideas about copyright and fair use to qualify as abuse, whereas the latter is direct financial damage – by your own direct competitors no less. It's fun to poke at a seeming hypocrisy of the big bad, but the similarity…

It's more ironic because without all the scraping openai has done, there would have been no ChatGPT. Also, it's not just the cost of the bandwidth and processing. Information has value too. Otherwise they wouldn't bother scraping it in the first place. They compete directly with the websites featuring their training data and thus they are taking away value from them just as the bots do from ChatGPT. In fact the more…

This leads me to thinking: I ask chatGPT a question and they get the answer from gamefaqs.

But what happens if gamefaqs disappears because of lack of traffic?

Can LLM actually create or only regurgitate content.

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#386

Post by andai »

p-e-w wrote: post #346
vlovich123 wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That still doesn’t explain why you can’t even start typing until that check proceeds. You could condition the outbound request from being processed until that’s the case. But preventing from typing seems like it’s just worse UX and the problem will fail to appear in any metrics you can track because you have no way of measuring “how quickly would the user have submitted their request without all this other stuff in t…

Many cloud products now continuously send themselves the input you type while you are typing it, to squeeze the maximum possible amount of data from your interactions. I don’t know whether ChatGPT is one of those products, but if it is, that behavior might be a side effect of blocking the input pipeline until verification completes. It might be that they want to get every single one of your keystrokes, but only after…

I wondered if ChatGPT streams my message to the GPU while I type it, because the response comes weirdly fast after I submit th message. But I don't know much about how this stuff works.

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#387

Post by 9864247888754 »

nikitaga wrote: post #217
Imnimo wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to me that OpenAI considers scraping to be a form of abuse.

Scraping static content from a website at near-zero marginal cost to its server, vs scraping an expensive LLM service provided for free, are different things. The former relies on fairly controversial ideas about copyright and fair use to qualify as abuse, whereas the latter is direct financial damage – by your own direct competitors no less. It's fun to poke at a seeming hypocrisy of the big bad, but the similarity…

[dead]

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#388

Post by lukan »

catoc wrote: post #358
littlestymaar wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they know it's bad, they just don't think the rules apply to them.

It’s only bad if you’re a closed, for-profit entity

Was that sarcasm? Speaking of it, what parts of OpenAI are still open?

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#389

Post by stefanka »

expedition32 wrote: post #385
wolvoleo wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more ironic because without all the scraping openai has done, there would have been no ChatGPT. Also, it's not just the cost of the bandwidth and processing. Information has value too. Otherwise they wouldn't bother scraping it in the first place. They compete directly with the websites featuring their training data and thus they are taking away value from them just as the bots do from ChatGPT. In fact the more…

This leads me to thinking: I ask chatGPT a question and they get the answer from gamefaqs. But what happens if gamefaqs disappears because of lack of traffic? Can LLM actually create or only regurgitate content.

They cannot create original content.

Re: ChatGPT won't let you type until Cloudflare reads your React state

#390

Post by lionkor »

MyNameIsNickT wrote: post #49

Hey! I'm Nick, and I work on Integrity at OpenAI. These checks are part of how we protect our first-party products from abuse like bots, scraping, fraud, and other attempts to misuse the platform. A big reason we invest in this is because we want to keep free and logged-out access available for more users. My team’s goal is to help make sure the limited GPU resources are going to real users. We also keep a very close…

Hi Nick, first of all, very cool of you to respond here instead of letting us all sit in the dark. I think that's what makes HN special.

That said, is it not a little bit weird that you want to protect yourself from scraping and bots, when your entire company, product, revenue, and your employment, depends on the fact that OpenAI can bot and scrape literally every part of the internet? So your moat is non-hydrated react code in the frontend?

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