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Coding agents could make free software matter again

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Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#61

Post by bluefirebrand »

apatheticonion wrote: post #53
bluefirebrand wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been looking for a copy-left "source available" license that allows me to distribute code openly but has a clause that says "if you would like to use these sources to train an LLM, please contact me and we'll work something out". I haven't yet found that Frankly do you think AI companies have even the remotest amount of respect for these licenses anyways? They will simply take your code if it is publicly scrap…

I wonder if there is a "loaded" lawsuit here that could be a win-win for license enforcement case law in LLMs. Take a litigious company like Nintendo. If one was to train an LLM on their works and the LLM produces an emulator, that would force a lawsuit. If Nintendo wins, then LLMs are stealing. If Nintendo loses, then we can decompile everything.

You're forgetting the option where the LLM companies pay Nintendo a silly amount of money for permission and Nintendo's executives take that as a win

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#62

Post by threethirtytwo »

SchemaLoad wrote: post #7
threethirtytwo wrote: post #4

I think the opposite. It will make all software matter less. If trendlines continue... It will be faster for AI to vibe code said software to your customized specifications than to sign up for a SaaS and learn it. "Claude, create a project management tool that simplifies jira, customize it to my workflow." So a lot of apps will actually become closed source personalized builds.

And then you get a new hire who already knows the common SaaS products but has to re learn your vibe coded version no one else uses where no information exists online. There is a reason why large proprietary products remain prevalent even when cheaper better alternatives exist. Being "industry standard" matters more than being the best.

The new hire will just vibe code a new solution that translates your solution into something he prefers. Every new hire will have his own.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#63

Post by hparadiz »

advael wrote: post #30
apatheticonion wrote: post #21

Having over a decade of open source software I've written freely available online, I actually really appreciate the value that AI && LLMs have provided me. The thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the fact that my works were likely included in the training data and, if it doesn't violate my licenses (GNU 2/3), it certainly feels against the spirit of what I intended when distributing my works. I was made redu…

I think there's no meaningful case by the letter of the law that use of training data that include GPL-licensed software in models that comprise the core component of modern LLMs doesn't obligate every producer of such models to make both the models and the software stack supporting them available under the same terms. Of course, it also seems clear in the present landscape that the law often depends more on the conv…

Derivative work.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#64

Post by est31 »

If I look around in the FLOSS communities, I see a lot of skepticism towards LLMs. The main concerns are:

1. they were trained on FLOSS repositories without consent of the authors, including GPL and AGPL repos

2. the best models are proprietary

3. folks making low-effort contribution attempts using AI (PRs, security reports, etc).

I agree those are legitimate problems but LLMs are the new reality, they are not going to go away. Much more powerful lobbies than the OSS ones are losing fights against the LLM companies (the big copyright holders in media).

But while companies can use LLMs to build replacements for GPL licensed code (where those LLMs have that GPL code probably in their training set), the reverse thing can also be done: one can break monopolies open using LLMs, and build so much open source software using LLMs.

In the end, the GPL is only a means to an end.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#65

Post by achierius »

jonahss wrote: post #37
apatheticonion wrote: post #21

Having over a decade of open source software I've written freely available online, I actually really appreciate the value that AI && LLMs have provided me. The thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the fact that my works were likely included in the training data and, if it doesn't violate my licenses (GNU 2/3), it certainly feels against the spirit of what I intended when distributing my works. I was made redu…

I feel kind of good knowing that my code, design decisions, styles, are now part of the data shaping all software now.

I'm sure you'll feel that way so long as you have an income.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#66

Post by threethirtytwo »

coffeefirst wrote: post #49
threethirtytwo wrote: post #4

I think the opposite. It will make all software matter less. If trendlines continue... It will be faster for AI to vibe code said software to your customized specifications than to sign up for a SaaS and learn it. "Claude, create a project management tool that simplifies jira, customize it to my workflow." So a lot of apps will actually become closed source personalized builds.

This isn’t going to happen. I can already build a ticket tracker in a weekend. I’ve been on many teams that used Jira, nobody loves Jira, none of us ever bothered to DIY something good enough. Why? Because it’s a massive distraction. It’s really fun to build all these side apps, but then you have to maintain them. I’m guessing a lot of vibeware will be abandoned rather than maintained.

Who said you’re building it? You’re telling your AI to build it while you go play golf or something.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#67

Post by woeirua »

sigbottle wrote: post #28
woeirua wrote: post #18

I’m not so sure… what I see as more likely is that coding agents will just strip parts from open source libraries to build bespoke applications for users. Users will be ecstatic because they get exactly what they want and they don’t have to worry about upstream supply chain attacks. Maintainers get screwed because no one contributes back to the main code base. In the end open source software becomes critical to the e…

But the users would have to maintain their own forks then. Unless you stream back patches into your forks, which implies there's some upstream being maintained. Software doesn't interoperate and maintain itself for free - somebody's gotta put in the time for that. I think as long as AI isn't literal AGI, social pressures will keep projects alive, in some state. There definitely is something scary about stealing entir…

Agents can clearly strip out functionality from libraries already. They can certainly backport patches to whatever parts you strip out.

The advantage of decoupling from supply chain attacks is so large that I expect this to be standard practice as soon as later this year.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#68

Post by hparadiz »

woeirua wrote: post #67
sigbottle wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the users would have to maintain their own forks then. Unless you stream back patches into your forks, which implies there's some upstream being maintained. Software doesn't interoperate and maintain itself for free - somebody's gotta put in the time for that. I think as long as AI isn't literal AGI, social pressures will keep projects alive, in some state. There definitely is something scary about stealing entir…

Agents can clearly strip out functionality from libraries already. They can certainly backport patches to whatever parts you strip out. The advantage of decoupling from supply chain attacks is so large that I expect this to be standard practice as soon as later this year.

Agents can read the binary that makes up a compiled file and detect behavior directly from that. I've been doing it to inspect my own builds for the presence of a feature.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#70

Post by hparadiz »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #66
coffeefirst wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t going to happen. I can already build a ticket tracker in a weekend. I’ve been on many teams that used Jira, nobody loves Jira, none of us ever bothered to DIY something good enough. Why? Because it’s a massive distraction. It’s really fun to build all these side apps, but then you have to maintain them. I’m guessing a lot of vibeware will be abandoned rather than maintained.

Who said you’re building it? You’re telling your AI to build it while you go play golf or something.

The hard part has always been shipping, buttoning things up, doing the design. Not the idea per say. And then if any of it is successful and starts making money guess who you're gonna call to maintain it?
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