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‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

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Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#201

Post by JumpCrisscross »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #195
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> inevitability of the energy transition Huge difference between tranistioning to renewables and going completely de-centralised. Even if we put a limit to the latter at the community level, it's a recipe for de-industrialisation. Centralised power production, even with renewables, has economies of scale, and those economies amplify with volatile demand sources, e.g. residences.

You can decentralize residential power without doing the same for industrial loads. Doing so is a mixed bag. It's somewhat more expensive however it's less prone to failures during natural disasters, failures aren't outside of your ability to fix, and it isn't subject to politics to nearly the same degree. When you consider the logistics of strengthening the last mile of residential to accommodate EVs in a sparsely p…

> You can decentralize residential power without doing the same for industrial loads. Doing so is a mixed bag

There is a middle ground: decentralize enough to run essential services. Run the rest through the grid. The big downside to decentralising residential power is that's variable demand–precisely the sort of demand you can net out against other parts of the grid. The sort of variance that makes grids more economic than everyone powering themselves.

(Again, in rural settings, yes–decentralise.)

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#202

Post by mbgerring »

laurencerowe wrote: post #154
mbgerring wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will be connected batteries in every home solving this problem faster than the fossil fuel lobby can come up with a new talking point about why it’ll never work.

I'm not convinced we'll ever see mass deployments of batteries to homes, not because of the fossil fuel lobby but because of the economies of scale from installing grid sized batteries at strategic points in the transmission network. In California grid scale batteries have capital costs of around $125/kWh to $155/kWh while a home battery might be 20x that including installation.

It’s already happening as I write this. An enormous amount of capital and labor are already deployed to find ways to get batteries into people’s homes, and growth is accelerating.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#203

Post by JumpCrisscross »

iugtmkbdfil834 wrote: post #194
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those proactive in a reactive world are often mocked and laughed at I'm going to start calling this a Jehovah's Witness complex. Where amplified, mostly imagined mockery of an incredibly dominant view, at least in group, is used as evidence of that view's righteousness and, by extension, rightness. > prices will not be dropping...Energy grid decentralization is occurring Cost versus resilience. A low-cost grid has…

I think the answer may be more complex than that. I mean, I know you are not wrong. My boss only recently made a crack at how pointless solar energy is in the world of cheap gas. But it is not just cost. It is a level of control the contractor has over it. The solar systems, as currently pushed, are designed to be carefully monitored at all times; if you read the contract ( in IL anyway, but I presume it is common, b…

> solar systems, as currently pushed, are designed to be carefully monitored at all times; if you read the contract

This varies from place to place. I got a quote for solar in Wyoming. It's 100% my deal. Nobody is leasing anything. If I skip inspections and fuck up my roof, that's on me.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#204

Post by ericd »

LunaSea wrote: post #178
mbgerring wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not weird if you’ve been participating in discussions on clean energy since the beginning of this century. The inevitability of the energy transition has been obvious for so long, and even when it’s done there will be cranks insisting that it’ll never work.

I like the transition to renewables , but there is nothing inevitable about it. We don't produce solar panels or have the materials to produce them in Europe. So we're just as dependent on imports as before.

It's aluminum, glass, silicon, and some conductive metal. Surely you all have those materials.

And even if you don't make them yourselves, they aren't make and then burn like fossil fuels, they are durable infrastructure, you don't have to replace them often - they have an expected lifespan of >30 years. Buy as many as China will sell you, and once you have more than enough installed, you're good for a long time, regardless of whether they cut you off.

I think being reliant on the fossil fuel supply chain for so long, it's a bit tricky to mindset shift that once these things are installed, you're just good. And they're super fungible, you don't need any precision replacement parts, so you can make your own replacement parts if you want.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#205

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

iugtmkbdfil834 wrote: post #194
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those proactive in a reactive world are often mocked and laughed at I'm going to start calling this a Jehovah's Witness complex. Where amplified, mostly imagined mockery of an incredibly dominant view, at least in group, is used as evidence of that view's righteousness and, by extension, rightness. > prices will not be dropping...Energy grid decentralization is occurring Cost versus resilience. A low-cost grid has…

I think the answer may be more complex than that. I mean, I know you are not wrong. My boss only recently made a crack at how pointless solar energy is in the world of cheap gas. But it is not just cost. It is a level of control the contractor has over it. The solar systems, as currently pushed, are designed to be carefully monitored at all times; if you read the contract ( in IL anyway, but I presume it is common, b…

> The solar systems, as currently pushed, are designed to be carefully monitored at all times; if you read the contract ( in IL anyway, but I presume it is common, because my mom had a similar experience ), I have to give the company a way in every time they desire to look at the panels.

I did my own install of a ground mount 6.7kW array. I initially declined to connect to the inverter manufacturer's monitoring, because I did not want my system hooked up to the internet.

Then, in the spring of 2024, the inverter failed (it was still under warranty). I was travelling at the time, but that may have made no difference at all. It took me a month to notice that generation had gone to zero.

Once I found out, and replaced the inverter, I chose to connect it not because the system requires it (it absolutely does not!), but so that the manufacturer would alert me in the future if a similar failure happened.

Ideally, I'd like to be able run a monitoring app locally, with no internet connection. For now, I'll take the remote monitoring despite my misgivings about it.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#206

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

formerly_proven wrote: post #101
mytailorisrich wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not expert but one difference is that in Germany the standard wiring is radial circuits with 16A MCBs while in the UK it's ring wiring with 32A MCBs. So in the UK we have 2.5mm^2 wires in a ring on a 32A MCBs... Of course a 2.5mm^2 wire is rated ~20A so any issues with the ring (sockets still work since connected from the other branch) can burn the wire before the MCB trips...

The "standard" wiring is 1.5mm² on 16A MCBs which are rated to trip at 1.13-1.45x nominal current (so 18-23 A). So this is already mildly improper because you can pull elevated currents continuously and dramatically shorten the life of the insulation.

The rated ampacity of wire for electrical distribution has a significant margin on it.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#207

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

PunchyHamster wrote: post #197
password4321 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not very well versed on this topic but I believe the balcony solar products market one of their safety features as "anti-islanding protection". Personally I wonder what happens if multiple balcony solar systems are connected... can each still tell when the grid is down since the other power source is active? https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/anti-islanding-and-smart...

people put few kW worth of micro-inverters and it is fine so I imagine that is figured out problem... question is whether the ones allowed for sale implement it well and are tested for it

my understanding is that micro-inverters send an "up and running" signal encoded over the DC wiring to the main inverter, and that this is used to detect micro-inverter failure. that is an entirely different problem than the one in the GP comment, i think.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#208

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #91
formerly_proven wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation in germany is essentially the same, but that's why net supply by these is limited to 800 W. I don't think anything changes w.r.t. earth leakage, why would the presence of the solar supply change anything from the RCD and fault point of views, respectively?

Not expert but one difference is that in Germany the standard wiring is radial circuits with 16A MCBs while in the UK it's ring wiring with 32A MCBs. So in the UK we have 2.5mm^2 wires in a ring on a 32A MCBs... Of course a 2.5mm^2 wire is rated ~20A so any issues with the ring (sockets still work since connected from the other branch) can burn the wire before the MCB trips...

Does anyone know the US equivalent terminology for a "ring final" ?

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#209

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #189
vkou wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can tell you've never dealt with an HOA or Strata before. Neighbourhood-level organizations of busybodies are way ahead of everyone else on winning the race to shittification. Putting them in charge of your electricity won't be all sunshine and rainbows.

I'd rather the county utility manage such a neighborhood level grid; I don't trust my neighbors over the long term to consistently make good decisions regarding such technical matters. But then that's sort of what the major grid operators already do with smaller localized circuits. It's just that it was all built multiple decades ago with centralized unidirectional distribution in mind.

> the county utility

the what now?

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#210

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

tacet wrote: post #98
mr_mitm wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When solar OVERproduces you have to literally pay someone to consume that energy, Can't we just throttle the solar panel? In a worst case, you just pull the plug. It's not like a nuclear power plant which needs to be shut down carefully, or am I misunderstanding something?

You can limit amount you feed back into network. Not sure how is situation with home installations, factory i work for runs 150kw plant for our own consumption and don't bother with selling, but i know that we can set up how much we want/are allowed to feed back.

You don't have to use net metering in residential either. Grid-supported hybrid inverters that won't export power can be installed. Bonus is that they run when the grid is down. It's effectively like having an automatic transfer switch where the grid is the backup generator when your batteries are drained. The profit margin for the pro installers is reduced so they don't promote them, but it is a viable route to save money and avoid hassles with the power company on a self-install.
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