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End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#251

Post by gzread »

WhyNotHugo wrote: post #244
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> further procedural steps by EU governments cannot be completely ruled out In a democracy, we don't kill our opposition. If they hold views we don't like, e.g. that security trumps privacy, they're going to litigate them. Probably their whole lives. That means they'll keep bringing up the same ideas. And you'll have to keep defeating them. But there are two corollaries. One: Passing legislation takes as much work as…

You have “centralised democracy”, a form of democracy where decisions, once debated and adopted, are implemented uniformly throughout an organisation. They are not debated a second time, and there’s no room for dissenting against decisions already made. It’s a double-edge sword though: if something you dislike gets votes, it’s never going away.

Yes, if I don't like something, I can't just ignore it. That is called democracy, and rule of law. Democracy is often interpreted to mean only things I like get passed, but that is incorrect.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#252

Post by gzread »

sveme wrote: post #220
1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"> Furthermore, the next massive threat to digital civil liberties is already on the agenda: Next up in the ongoing trilogue, lawmakers will negotiate whether messenger and chat services, as well as app stores, will be legally obliged to implement age verification. This would require users to provide ID documents or submit to facial scans, effectively making anonymous communication impossible and severely endangering…

There's a fairly non-invasive way to do age verification: ID cards that connect to a smartphone app that only provide a boolean age verification to the requesting service. Requesting service can be anonymous to the ID app and the requesting service can only receive a bool. That most implementation will try to collect far more data is the real concern.

There's an even easier one: When you buy a phone, the salesman checks your ID and sets the phone to child lock mode or unlocked mode.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#253

Post by Fargren »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #92
latexr wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does matter. Even if it eventually passes, the later and more gutted it is, the better. Saying that it doesn’t matter is just defeatist (and unfortunately always parroted on HN) and plainly wrong. Defeatists have been proven wrong time and again.

Perhaps a system where that can happen is broken

A system where this can happen is healthy. The alternative is a system where once legislation fails to pass you are forbidden to modify it and try again. _That_ would be a broken system, where compromise is impossible, and attempting to make any change is a very risky move because you might fail, forever. There would be a chilling effect, legislation would take longer to change, and laws would become frozen in the past.

What we are seeing here is checks and balances, working as intended.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#254

Post by throwaway132448 »

hkpack wrote: post #234
someguyornotidk wrote: post #226

The fact that they could pull a stunt like this shows that the EU is no democracy. Shame on the politicians who tried to rob people of their rights.

How have you came to such conclusions? If anything it proves the opposite. Look at how laws are passed in russia for example for comparison and let me know what similarities you see.

A lot of people hate seeing the EU succeed at anything, simply because they are envious or it does not validate their world view.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#255

Post by JumpCrisscross »

WhyNotHugo wrote: post #244
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> further procedural steps by EU governments cannot be completely ruled out In a democracy, we don't kill our opposition. If they hold views we don't like, e.g. that security trumps privacy, they're going to litigate them. Probably their whole lives. That means they'll keep bringing up the same ideas. And you'll have to keep defeating them. But there are two corollaries. One: Passing legislation takes as much work as…

You have “centralised democracy”, a form of democracy where decisions, once debated and adopted, are implemented uniformly throughout an organisation. They are not debated a second time, and there’s no room for dissenting against decisions already made. It’s a double-edge sword though: if something you dislike gets votes, it’s never going away.

> They are not debated a second time, and there’s no room for dissenting against decisions already made

Of course they are and of course there is. The "EU passed a temporary derogation" to the ePrivacy Directive in 2021 "called Chat Control 1.0 by critics" [1]. That is now dead [2].

> if something you dislike gets votes, it’s never going away

Weird to be saying precedent is infintely binding in 2026 of all years.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_Control#Legislative_proce...

[2] https://x.com/NoToDigitalID/status/2037213272131203339

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#257

Post by Zak »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #229
nickslaughter02 wrote: post #3

> Despite today’s victory, further procedural steps by EU governments cannot be completely ruled out. Most of all, the trilogue negotiations on a permanent child protection regulation (Chat Control 2.0) are continuing under severe time pressure. There, too, EU governments continue to insist on their demand for “voluntary” indiscriminate Chat Control. > Furthermore, the next massive threat to digital civil liberties i…

> further procedural steps by EU governments cannot be completely ruled out In a democracy, we don't kill our opposition. If they hold views we don't like, e.g. that security trumps privacy, they're going to litigate them. Probably their whole lives. That means they'll keep bringing up the same ideas. And you'll have to keep defeating them. But there are two corollaries. One: Passing legislation takes as much work as…

It seems to me that "no and don't ask again" should be a possible outcome of a vote on proposed legislation.

Without going into full detail on the procedure I'm imagining, such an outcome would bar consideration of equivalent legislation for several years and require a supermajority at several stages of the legislative process to override.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#258

Post by AnssiH »

moffkalast wrote: post #212
vaylian wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It had already passed and started? Facebook and others have been scanning your private messages for many years already. Then someone discovered that this practice is illegal in Europe. So they passed the temporary chat control 1.0 emergency law to make it legal. The plan was to draft a chat control 2.0 law that would then be the long-term solution. But negotiations took too long and the temporary law will expire on…

I take it facebook/meta paid no fines for doing it illegally in the first place?

My impression was that the temporary permission-granting regulation was passed before the relevant privacy law came into effect, but I didn't check the dates now.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#259

Post by Saline9515 »

Zak wrote: post #257
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> further procedural steps by EU governments cannot be completely ruled out In a democracy, we don't kill our opposition. If they hold views we don't like, e.g. that security trumps privacy, they're going to litigate them. Probably their whole lives. That means they'll keep bringing up the same ideas. And you'll have to keep defeating them. But there are two corollaries. One: Passing legislation takes as much work as…

It seems to me that "no and don't ask again" should be a possible outcome of a vote on proposed legislation. Without going into full detail on the procedure I'm imagining, such an outcome would bar consideration of equivalent legislation for several years and require a supermajority at several stages of the legislative process to override.

The EU parliament is not a real parliament since it can't choose which laws it has to vote for, and in negociations ("trilogue") it doesn't hold the pen.

Basically, it can oppose new legislations but can't retract old laws.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#260

Post by Saline9515 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #255
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have “centralised democracy”, a form of democracy where decisions, once debated and adopted, are implemented uniformly throughout an organisation. They are not debated a second time, and there’s no room for dissenting against decisions already made. It’s a double-edge sword though: if something you dislike gets votes, it’s never going away.

> They are not debated a second time, and there’s no room for dissenting against decisions already made Of course they are and of course there is. The "EU passed a temporary derogation" to the ePrivacy Directive in 2021 "called Chat Control 1.0 by critics" [1]. That is now dead [2]. > if something you dislike gets votes, it’s never going away Weird to be saying precedent is infintely binding in 2026 of all years. [1]…

The EU parliament can't retract existing laws if the EC doesn't agree and proposes a law doing it.
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