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Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

nytimes.com

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#291

Post by bluecalm »

wrs wrote: post #192
puppycodes wrote: post #85

The differences between cisgender bodies are already so varied that the logic falls apart almost immediately. For that matter why not restrict rich athletes who have access to training and equipment that poor athletes do not? The point at where the line is drawn is entirely arbitrary. Gattaca vibes.

I follow sport climbing, which has always seemed like a great example of this. Climbing ability isn’t just a matter of strength or any other single dimension. E.g., the women’s routes are set on the assumption they’re more flexible than the men, not just less strong. Climbers come in many different shapes and sizes. Some climbers look like string beans, others look like they grew up lifting cows. And BTW, there are w…

Rock climbing is one sport known for small differences in performance between men and women. This is unlike about any other sport out there where a difference is huge (the worst male aspiring semi-pro is often better than a top woman).

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#292

Post by j_w »

hananova wrote: post #240

This also bans cis women with genetic anomalies. Until men with genetic anomalies are equally banned from sports (for example, being an outlier in height for basketball), this is nothing more than a misogynist attempt to make women’s sport as unimpressive and average as possible. Rules set by mostly old men of course. Remember, sport is and has always been about statistical outliers competing. Fairness has never been…

Well I think it bans women that thought/think that they are cis but actually aren't, which is a bit of a different story. A fairly tragic one. Intersex/trans/anything else people just don't really have a clean fit into a lot of places, which is unfortunate.

> this is nothing more than a misogynist attempt to make women’s sport as unimpressive and average as possible. Rules set by mostly old men of course.

Well, not really. 56%[1] of young women think that trans women should not be allowed in women's sports.

> It’s also mighty interesting how it’s always the male division that’s open, until you happen to have a sport where women are beating men at it, and then suddenly it’s the women’s division that’s the open one! (See shooting.)

IMO the "better" division should be open. If we are going to do two classes, and we find that one class has some sort of physical advantage inherently, then that class should be the "open" one.

> Stuff like this is why professional sports is widely seen as a cheater’s club where everyone tries to cheat as hard as possible just shy of getting caught, then acts completely innocent and indignant when someone else just barely crosses the line into getting caught.

A lot of people (the majority?) don't understand the extent of PEDs usage in sports. When everyone cheats nobody does. I've heard the argument before for going an "anything goes" division from friends for some sports, but then people are just going to start dying regularly from side effects like in body building.

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/poll-american...

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#293

Post by billypilgrim »

SunshineTheCat wrote: post #271
cmiles8 wrote: post #159

[flagged]

Many people like to focus on the purely physical attributes, but there's a clear distinction even in realms like chess. The highest ranked female chess player is right around #55 globally, wherein the top 50 all are dominated by men. Some of this may have to do with men having more interest/higher propensity of starting young which is where most grandmasters begin their journey, but still an interesting thing to cons…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polgár

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#294

Post by mlboss »

SunshineTheCat wrote: post #271
cmiles8 wrote: post #159

[flagged]

Many people like to focus on the purely physical attributes, but there's a clear distinction even in realms like chess. The highest ranked female chess player is right around #55 globally, wherein the top 50 all are dominated by men. Some of this may have to do with men having more interest/higher propensity of starting young which is where most grandmasters begin their journey, but still an interesting thing to cons…

[flagged]

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#295

Post by fxwin »

hananova wrote: post #240

This also bans cis women with genetic anomalies. Until men with genetic anomalies are equally banned from sports (for example, being an outlier in height for basketball), this is nothing more than a misogynist attempt to make women’s sport as unimpressive and average as possible. Rules set by mostly old men of course. Remember, sport is and has always been about statistical outliers competing. Fairness has never been…

> It’s also mighty interesting how it’s always the male division that’s open, until you happen to have a sport where women are beating men at it, and then suddenly it’s the women’s division that’s the open one! (See shooting.)

Just in case you're referring to Zhang Shan winning Gold in 1992: the decision to bar women from competing in the 1996 Olympics was made before Zhang had won her medal. [0]

> Until men with genetic anomalies are equally banned from sports (for example, being an outlier in height for basketball)

We don't have height categories, we have categories based on sex. We have categories based on sex because there are physical difference caused by difference in sex that lead to advantages in sports competitions. As such, people who have physical advantages over others based on their difference in sex (e.g. going through male puberty vs. female puberty) shouldn't be able to compete in the category created to protect participants from precisely those differences.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Shan#cite_ref-nyt_4-0

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#296

Post by bitshiftfaced »

hananova wrote: post #240

This also bans cis women with genetic anomalies. Until men with genetic anomalies are equally banned from sports (for example, being an outlier in height for basketball), this is nothing more than a misogynist attempt to make women’s sport as unimpressive and average as possible. Rules set by mostly old men of course. Remember, sport is and has always been about statistical outliers competing. Fairness has never been…

> It’s also mighty interesting how it’s always the male division that’s open, until you happen to have a sport where women are beating men at it, and then suddenly it’s the women’s division that’s the open one!

Hypothetically you could have three divisions: open, men, and women. In many contexts it's more practical to have two, where one is open. In those cases, if the sex that didn't win more was also the open division, then people would complain because both divisions would be dominated by players of one sex.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#297

Post by harveychess »

eirini1 wrote: post #92

what always strikes me as weird is how often the conversation is framed around "men competing in women's sports" when trans women cant really be said to be biologically male anymore. Taking Estrogen and blocking testosterone has a huge effect on how fast/strong/athletic someone is. I feel like that should be the key point of discussion, but somehow always gets burried under other, kind of less relevant subjects (for…

There is no way a man would ever compete in women's sports.

Let's imagine a con-man wanted to compete in women's sports. He would have to decide this early in life. Most trans people realize before they are 10. He would then have to spend the rest of his life pretending to be trans to not get his medal revoked.

Trans women are women. They don't have to pretend to be women. However, some trans women have to hide their identity and present as men, for their safety. Presenting as a gender you're not is incredibly taxing. There are high rates of depression and increased risk of suicide for people who have to hide their gender.

Besides the incredible psychological toll, our imaginary con-man would face bullying, harassment, physical assault, sexual violence, employment discrimination, housing discrimination, exclusion from healthcare, and increased risks of poverty and homelessness, which in turn correspond to greater risks of fatal violence.

The rights and legal status of transgender people vary by country. Our imaginary con-man might have restricted access to education, to sports, to bathrooms, and to marriage and military positions. As well as much, much worse.

On top of all that, our imaginary con-man would still have to train to be an Olympic athlete. Most men are not as fast or strong as the world's fastest and strongest women. Sex differences in athletic performance also depend on more than just biological differences. Living as a woman means only having access to the resources available to female athletes.

No man would go through all that for a women's medal.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#298

Post by baumy »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #287
baumy wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "solution" can really only be proposed by someone who has not played sports. This would simply result in women being unable to compete in sports professionally, outside of a couple small niches like ultra long distance swimming and a couple sub-disciplines of gymnastics. I do not consider that to be a good thing.

It really depends on the way classes are divided. Dismissing the general concept demonstrates a fear of change rather than a legitimate openness to fair play.

No it doesn't, and no it doesn't. Proposing this concept demonstrates a profound ignorance of what competition at the top level of sports actually looks like.

The concept is just bad, unless your goal is to prevent women from being able to make a living playing professional sports.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#299

Post by array_key_first »

homeonthemtn wrote: post #284
DrJokepu wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That already exists. That’s the men’s category. There are no rules forbidding women from competing in men’s categories at Olympic events.

Right but why not a specific carve out instead of a loop hole? If it's called "men's" the intention is clear. If it's called "mixed league" the intention is clear

I think they're trying to say that if there was a mixed league it would always end up being 100% men at the highest level. Like, mixed league basketball would almost certainly be just men at the highest level because of how the sport works.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#300

Post by postflopclarity »

amykhar wrote: post #238

When I was growing up, I remember some drama because East German and Soviet male athletes were trying to compete as women. If male to female trans athletes were allowed to compete, I imagine it would just be a matter of time before a female athlete would HAVE to be trans in order to stand a competitive chance.

your imagination is wrong. obviously.
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