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Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

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Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#511

Post by marshallp »

robomartin wrote: post #498
marshallp wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, statistically, democrats are smarter than republicans. I must be smarter than average!

Are you confused enough to think that my comment was a compliment? > Yeah, statistically, democrats are smarter than republicans. I must be smarter than average! If it makes you feel good, so be it. Please be sure to keep that cork on the fork. Quick. Since you are so smart: How many years will it take to pay off 16 trillion dollars in debt while paying interest and continuing to over-spend at a rate of over 1 trilli…

Specialist interests will destroy the purity of both parties so it's no use arguing over numbers like that. It's a matter of choosing the lesser evil.

Peter Norvig, who is a god among the mere mortals here, makes a better case than I could http://norvig.com/election-faq-2012.html

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#512

Post by jlgreco »

refurb wrote: post #493
pulplobster wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The population density of Sweden is lower than the US and it has excellent roads.

It has less to do with population density and more to do with population clusters. The people in Sweden aren't even distributed across the entire country.

Ehh, maybe. Philadelphia's roads are legendarily bad though.

One summer when I was living in Philadelphia they removed the surface of the road in front of my apartment. Two months later they put it back. And if it's not that, it's crews filling in holes from road-work with about half as much asphalt as the hole needed, or the random patches of cobblestone street still left in the city, seemingly with little rhyme or reason.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#513

Post by trhtrsh »

briandear wrote: post #378
blindhippo wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this is the reason, there is a bigger problem in America then simple voter fraud...

Ever dealt with a union election? That's exactly the problem with non secret ballots. You vote against unionization and thugs show up at your house. Union activists are among the most violent people around.

You could make your point without rabid partisanism. There is violence on all sides of unionization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-union_violence

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#514

Post by tokipin »

JoeCortopassi wrote: post #295

I know that this will remain at the bottom of this thread, because it doesn't have enough conspiracy theory in it, but does anyone really think that this is actual vote tampering ? I mean, why on earth would you tamper with a voting machine so that it stuffs the ballot, but have it update the UI so that the user can see and report the error? This should fall to the way side of failing basic logic, but it doesn't beca…

normally i'd agree but i don't see it out of line at all. just take a look at all the Herculean efforts that Republicans have made in the past two years to reduce the ability for people to vote

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#515

Post by gordonguthrie »

polymatter wrote: post #480
gordonguthrie wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all totally irrelevant - I speak as a former candidate for both the UK and Scottish Parliaments. The count needs to be verifiable, and needs to be simply comprehensible. The paper process has the following check points: * the ballot box is seen to be empty at the beginning of the process * the turnout can be collected and collated by the candidates nominees during the day * the first count is the ballot count…

Please put info in your profile. I strongly agree with everything you said, and am thus interested in learning more. I had no idea the Scottish election was so ridiculously bad. Is there anyone campaigning against this in the UK I can donate money to, or lend my support to? Paper ballet (and the process you outlined behind it) is important to prove beyond all reasonable doubt to the losers and their voters that the e…

There was an independent inquiry - the results can be read here: http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/electora...

On reading it I see that I have misrepresented the figures from memory: 2.88% of regional/list ballots were invalid 4.075% of constituency ballots were invalid 1.83% of local government ballots were invalid

These were against a historical spoilt paper rate of about 0.66%

(I have edited the original post to correct it)

The regional and constituency ballots were on the same physical piece of paper and if you voted a full ticket (eg SNP/SNP or Labour/Labour) there was only one way to do it.

For small parties (Greens, SSP) which only ran on the regional list you had to split the ticket. And there was one valid way to vote Labour/Green and one invalid way - so the small parties were much more liable to get invalid votes. The number of independent/small party MSP's was lower than expected.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#516

Post by trhtrsh »

kybernetikos wrote: post #396
njs12345 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punchscan for an example of one such system which preserves the secret ballot property.

From reading the wiki article it seems that Punchscan allows the voter to prove which way they voted.

That is incorrect. Why do you think so? Are you thinking of this: ". The voter can look up her ballot by typing in the serial number and she can check that information held by the election authority matches her ballot. "

The voter must retain her vote (A or B) in human memory, which cannot be externally verified, except by brain scan, etc... but that detail is rather unsolvable.

Punchscan is a bit impractical for verifying large ballots, but large contested ballots are rare.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#517

Post by cantankerous »

specialist wrote: post #344
jcurbo wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This entire thread is interesting because our typical programming instincts - making sure user actions are linked to user desires via digital signatures, etc - get completely thrown out the window when you talk about voting and secret ballots. You need to be able to ensure the voter is able to make their choice independently, without pressure or publicity - but you can not perform any kind of integrity check that wou…

Yup. There is exactly no way to ensure the secret ballot (voter privacy) or public count (auditable results) with any form of electronic voting.

This is actually not quite true. See http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/papers/civitas-tr.pdf

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#518

Post by jlgreco »

petitmiam wrote: post #485
jlgreco wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the particular case of roads, the issue is actually that America does not have enough people for it's size. The population density in many states is too poor to support, at tax rates that americans are willing to tolerate, the amount of road that is necessary. See: the disparity between road quality in Maryland (good density) and Pennsylvania (poor density). (or, to correct for climate, compare Pennsylvania with N…

Your comment caught my eye, because I usually hear population density being used to explain why Australia's internet isn't as good as elsewhere. I'm certainly no expert on the topic, but I haven't heard any news about any major problems with Australia's roads. I'm curious to know how they compare with roads in the US. USA density: 33.7/km2 87.4/sq mi population: ~ 314 mil AUS density: 2.8/km2 7.3/sq mi population: ~…

The reasons I have usually heard for poor internet in Australia are usually along the lines of "little/poor fiber to the continent" or "momentum from previously little/poor fiber to the continent". I don't know how much truth there is to either of those.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#520

Post by scott_s »

specialist wrote: post #451
JoshTriplett wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system in Oregon works quite well. In the mail, you get a voter's pamphlet, a ballot to fill out, and two envelopes. You put your name, address, and signature on the outer envelope, put the ballot in the unmarked inner "secrecy" envelope, and put the secrecy envelope in the identifying envelope. The people counting the ballots use the outer envelope to check identity against the list of registered voters (and the…

Have you observed central count? I think you'll be less enthusiastic once you understand how it works. In my jurisdiction, ballots are stuffed into an image scanner (like a high speed fax) as they arrive, the votes are detected, any ambiguous votes are "electronically adjudicated" meaning workers alter the database to correct for voter intent or write ins. There's a nightly summary report, allowing people to peek at…

It's also true that vote by mail silently disenfranchises about the same number of people it enfranchises.

That's a numerical statement. Can you provide the numbers behind it? How much is turnout increased, and where did you get the 1% figure for the USPS losing first class mail from? I would assume that mail going to central locations are more likely to be delivered than to individuals. Same with issues related to change of address.

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