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Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

theguardian.com

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Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#81

Post by epolanski »

ericmay wrote: post #72
epolanski wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really struggle with this model of protectionism. It has rarely worked in history, and when it did, it only did so for very short specific time frames intended to kickstart a sector, never to protect it in its mature state. Examples are south korean and japanese post ww2 protectionism of key sectors, but again, only to kickstart them. Those very sectors had to compete globally quickly to survive. We're in capitalis…

> And I don't buy the "but China fuels money into their EV industry" either. Well, you’re wrong. There’s not much else to say bout that. > And why would I care if Chinese taxpayers subsidize my car? I really don't. Because it prices the vehicles below points where others can compete. Then they go out of business, and then the remaining winner raises prices. If you are Germany, Japan, or the United States that means l…

> Well, you’re wrong. There’s not much else to say bout that.

That's an opinion, not a fact.

> Because it prices the vehicles below points where others can compete.

This is way too expensive for something like that to last. The rush to the bottom is already killing so many chinese automakers locally. The idea that they can sustain such a money bleed globally is hard to believe.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#82

Post by M0r13n »

I've had a rough time with the last two EVs I've owned. I bought a Honda e in 2020 because of its retro-future charm, but ended up being disappointed by several things:

- the range was miserable

- the software quality was bad

- no OTA updates ever (despite Honda's promises)

- slow charging

- poor public charging infrastructure in Germany

I should have known that a 35 kW battery wouldn't deliver great range or charging speed. But I didn't fully appreciate how limiting it would be.

Last year, I bought a new Mini Cooper e. Larger battery. Better software. BMW's quality actually delivered this time. The car feels objectively nice. The software is polished. There are updates. Few bugs. But the range still leaves something to be desired. In summer it's okay. During winter 30-40% of the range just melts away.

Public charging in Northern Germany still sucks:

- too few public chargers

- chargers are often broken or out of service

- pricing is intransparent

Municipal utility companies ("Stadtwerke") seem especially bad at maintaining their charger fleets. Every second charger that I want to use is out of service. The one next to my apartment has been labeled as "defective" for a couple of weeks now. Nobody seems to care...

I still like (love during summer) my car. It's a cool car. It feels luxurious. It's comfortable. It's fun to tear around corners. It's still compact enough to maneuver through the city. And it looks cool. But it also costs 40-50k EUR and only has limited range. And public charging really needs to improve.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#83

Post by [deleted] »

xp84 wrote: post #69
tahoeskibum wrote: post #2

Weird headline: Japanese carmakers are doing the same error, while Tesla (an American company) is the one of the leading electric carmakers... I'd just replace it with Legacy Carmakers (e.g. Ford, GM, Toyota and so on).

GM has a ton of EV models and has been doing a ton of EV investment, R&D, etc. How can you say they’re somehow not EV enough? I think this article’s author is an absolutist and believes any company that doesn’t go 100% EV regardless of market demand is stupid. I think that’s irrational. And I love my EV. But it’s going to take 20 years or more for the entire country to even get to a place where all your suburbanites…

[deleted]

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#85

Post by delta_p_delta_x »

seb1204 wrote: post #34
izacus wrote: post #17

VAG group has EVs (and pretty good ones) across the board: VW with ID series, Škoda with Enyaq/Elroq/Epiq, Audi with eTron series (SUV, sedan and estate), SEAT with Cupra Born and others. BMW just launched Neue Klasse, with iX3 selling like hot cakesa nd i3 looking amazing, with i7 in pipeline. Mercedes also launched a great new platform with CLA which is coming to other sizes as well. Meanwhile, Renault 5 is selling…

Porsche... Eye roll

If money wasn't an object, I'd buy one EV: the Taycan Turbo S.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#86

Post by [deleted] »

epolanski wrote: post #51
hyperionultra wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By limiting imports and offering alternatives in home. Also, the myths about reliability ads a lot.

I really struggle with this model of protectionism. It has rarely worked in history, and when it did, it only did so for very short specific time frames intended to kickstart a sector, never to protect it in its mature state. Examples are south korean and japanese post ww2 protectionism of key sectors, but again, only to kickstart them. Those very sectors had to compete globally quickly to survive. We're in capitalis…

[deleted]

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#87

Post by freshpots »

xp84 wrote: post #69
tahoeskibum wrote: post #2

Weird headline: Japanese carmakers are doing the same error, while Tesla (an American company) is the one of the leading electric carmakers... I'd just replace it with Legacy Carmakers (e.g. Ford, GM, Toyota and so on).

GM has a ton of EV models and has been doing a ton of EV investment, R&D, etc. How can you say they’re somehow not EV enough? I think this article’s author is an absolutist and believes any company that doesn’t go 100% EV regardless of market demand is stupid. I think that’s irrational. And I love my EV. But it’s going to take 20 years or more for the entire country to even get to a place where all your suburbanites…

"But it’s going to take 20 years or more for the entire country to even get to a place where all your suburbanites can afford the $5,000-$10,000 for the panel upgrade and wiring to charge at home.."

I'm charging just fine with a decent commute, using only a 120V 12A circuit. You don't need a 240V 50A circuit to charge your car in 4 hours.

Technology Connections does an excellent video on this:

https://youtu.be/W96a8svXo14

It will help update your knowledge on this topic.

Cheers

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#88

Post by DeathArrow »

xp84 wrote: post #43
tpm wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On long-term support and parts availability perhaps - I seriously doubt most of Chinese models bought now will have parts readily available in 5+ years. VW (and their other brands) and BMW have good new EVs coming to market now, while Toyota is waking up too. They will survive I think. Stellantis though, not sure about them. And many Chinese carmakers will be gone too.

If Stellantis dies it won’t be because of insufficient EV zeal. It’ll be because they mostly make garbage cars no one wants. Saw this funny video about the top 10 cars with the most still-unsold inventory of their 2024(!) MY: https://youtu.be/R20QEyrQ2FE?si=cou6HgknYQOc8zbt

Many of those models with unsold 2024 inventory are EVs.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#90

Post by simonw »

The other day I was joking with friends about how I'd love to have a car with a deployable surveillance drone to help with parking and so if I'm stuck in traffic I could have my drone scout ahead and see what's up.

Turns out BYD have one of those already! https://www.theverge.com/news/622963/byd-dji-vehicle-mounted...

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