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Ghost — rethinking WordPress

john.onolan.org

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Re: Ghost — rethinking WordPress

#191

Post by mosselman »

drivingmenuts wrote: post #87
mosselman wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes thats the way to create great new products. Make it easy for non-techies to get them up and running and make sure they run on shared hosting and are created in a language that beginners use to learn about programming.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, so I'll just assume the worst. Yes, it is - there's a lot more non-techies than there are of the other kind, so it makes sense that you focus your efforts on the larger market. As for the whole "language that beginners use to learn about programming", do you mean Python or Java? PHP is everywhere but the last I checked, Python and Java are the teaching and taught languag…

I meant PHP.

I don't want to spark some sort of war on what language beats up your language. So I wont. Besides I don't think something 'being everywhere' makes it good. By that standard lots of things in this world are good.

PHP is exactly what you say it is with regards to being similar to a workhorse. It is a tool for programmers who like to work very hard to achieve something that a harvester could do a lot quicker and more efficiently.

Alex Munroe explains what I meant better than anyone I have seen. It is a great read. Also if you like PHP. http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de...

He does not bash PHP, he explains why he thinks it is the wrong tool for the job. Interestingly, he also uses the tool analogy. We are all so predictable :).

Re: Ghost — rethinking WordPress

#192

Post by voidfiles »

filmgirlcw wrote: post #176
dangrossman wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Markdown isn't for bloggers, it's for developers. The average blogger has never learned an "alternative syntax" in their lives -- a word-processor-like formatting toolbar, like WordPress has, makes much more sense.

I disagree. I know I'm on the fringe but I make my living as a writer and 100% of my work is written in Markdown (MultiMarkdown, actually) that I then convert to HTML to paste into WordPress. Is it perfect for everyone, no, but for the subset of users who want to roll their own server setup and still have an easy-to-use publishing platform, it sure does fill a lot of boxes. Moreover, I can teach people Markdown 10x f…

You aren't alone. There is actually a version of Markdown for writing Screenplays. When writers adopt Markdown then I am not sure who Markdown is not for.

Re: Ghost — rethinking WordPress

#193

Post by davewasthere »

sergiotapia wrote: post #83

I'd love for a blogging platform that let me use custom CSS, Markdown (because I post code all the time on my blog) and free hosting. Where is something like that? Wordpress, atrocious code support. Jekyll, too much configuration. I don't want to learn Jekyll I just want to post code. Where is the middle ground for people like me? Sounds like this hypothetical "Ghost" is just what I'm looking for. Now if someone coul…

Github pages and prose.io would do the trick for you then.

I really like Ghost, but as a front-end to a github-pages/Jekyll powered blog. It'd be exactly what I'm after.

Re: Ghost — rethinking WordPress

#194

Post by sergiotapia »

davewasthere wrote: post #193
sergiotapia wrote: post #83

I'd love for a blogging platform that let me use custom CSS, Markdown (because I post code all the time on my blog) and free hosting. Where is something like that? Wordpress, atrocious code support. Jekyll, too much configuration. I don't want to learn Jekyll I just want to post code. Where is the middle ground for people like me? Sounds like this hypothetical "Ghost" is just what I'm looking for. Now if someone coul…

Github pages and prose.io would do the trick for you then. I really like Ghost, but as a front-end to a github-pages/Jekyll powered blog. It'd be exactly what I'm after.

I've tried Github Pages, not intuitive AT ALL, terrible user experience.

I'll look into prose.io

Re: Ghost — rethinking WordPress

#195

Post by zem »

tsewlliw wrote: post #44
agumonkey wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used the sociable plugin (like/tweet/+1 buttons). Out of extremism I tested under elinks, saw some weird empty ul/li hanging around, inspected the plugin config and then went into the code. The latest release at the time was barely beta code, large spans of deadcode, copy/pasted pages-long loops that were 90% similar. Wordpress plugin pages quote millions of download for this plugin. Who needs quality ?

(100% totally non sarcastic here) This is what I love about PHP devs. Imagine how much effort it was to write that. The author may not have have the chops to refactor that into something elegant, but he wanted it done and was perfectly willing to just do it the hard way and FUCKING SHIP IT, warts and all. Its easy to laugh at code after the fact, but you can't argue that a ton of people aren't finding the author's wo…

i'm reminded of one of my favourite programming blog posts ever, "slumming with the basic programmers" [http://prog21.dadgum.com/21.html]. i reread it every so often, just so that i keep that perspective in mind.

Re: Ghost — rethinking WordPress

#196

Post by dkuntz2 »

onli wrote: post #167
dkuntz2 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean you can't make a blog without comments? Definitionally a blog is a web log, or an online journal. There is no requirement that a blog have comments. Dustin Curtis' Svbtle is a recent blogging platform without comments, Jekyll and its brethren of blog-aware static-site generators are also without comments (unless the publisher adds them using an external service). Nobody needs comments, and there are…

If I think of the platonian ideal of a blog, it has comments. And Trackback or Pingbacks. A "blog" without them is just a website someone normally updates regularily. Of course, that can have its merits, but it's not a normal blog. And btw, I "need" comments in my blog. I like them, they add value to the articles and if an article results in a good discussion, to write him was instantly more worth it. How can you for…

A "normal blog"? That requires that one define normal, with a set of metrics, it also requires a set of websites to be analyzed. Should that set be all blogs hosted with WordPress or Blogger than yes, normal becomes having comments, because that's the default option.

But, if you use a different set, say a group of people who use Jekyll or another static site generator, than normal turns into no comments.

Do we include all sites that consider themselves to be a blog inside of this set? Should there be a number of readers over time and a number of posts over time requirement? Should the content being delivered be of a certain category? You can't say that a "normal" blog has comments without defining those, you can't even define "normal" without defining the set.

----

Definitionally, a blog does not require a commenting system. I said it before, and you seem to be refuting that. [Wikipedia says that](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog)

> Although not a requirement [...] blogs are interactive, allowing visitors to leave comments

Yes, I took out the "most good quality" part, because it shows a bias.

Princeton WordNet defines a blog as "a shared on-line journal where people can post diary entries about their personal experiences and hobbies", making no reference to comments at all. The Wiktionary also has no references to comments. [WordPress' Codex](http://codex.wordpress.org/Glossary#Blog) likewise makes no reference to comments inside of it's blog definition. Same with [Blogger](https://www.blogger.com/tour_start.g).

There are many people called bloggers who's sites don't have comments, Gruber's Daring Fireball, Marco Arment's blog for a few.

----

You just proved my point about nobody needing comments. You use the term need, but imply want. Your blog has no commenting requisite, you just enjoy having them. Functionally it would have very few differences if it didn't have comments.

And, I never said nobody wants comments. There are many instances where people may have a site built like a blog where comments are meant to be a discussion board of sorts where some BBS for forum software would suit them better. There's no commenting requirement for a blog to be a blog.

Some people may enjoy discussion inside of a comments section of a blog, and some people may operate their website in a manner dependent on a comments section, but I would argue that in such cases they're the ones who aren't operating a "normal blog", and are instead operating a discussion forum of sorts.

Likewise, trackbacks, pingbacks, and refbacks are not required for a blog either. None of those are official "web features" as specified by the W3C or the WHATWG the two organizations considered to be the "keepers of web standards". And it requires additional work by the publisher as it isn't something that can be implemented by generic server software (note the generic part, server software created specifically for serving a specific piece of software could very easily implement them).

Plus, comments and all of the *backs require some form of a database to run, even if it isn't your own database. Are you saying that a database is also a requisite for a site being considered a blog?

Re: Ghost — rethinking WordPress

#197

Post by benackles »

johnonolan wrote: post #113
benackles wrote: post #88

His argument about "No Corporate Arm of The Law" seems a little flawed. He compares WordPress to Mozilla and argues that Ghost will be more like Mozilla. Mozilla Corporation is a for-profit arm of Mozilla Foundation. They are nearly identical to the relationship between WordPress Foundation and Automattic inc. Each companies corporate arm generates revenue and reinvests those dollars and development resources back in…

Hi Ben, it's my understanding that Mozilla Corp is 100% owned by the Mozilla Foundation, and that any profits made by the Mozilla Corporation are reinvested into the Mozilla project. The WordPress Foundation and Automattic Inc are two entirely separate entities. You are right in saying that they share a nearly identical relationship - however this small difference is extremely key to the difference in the overall phi…

Hey John,

First of all, gorgeous mockups! I love where you're headed with the design and user experience. The cluttered WordPress dashboard and clunky post editor are my least favorite aspects of WordPress. I also really like how you're incorporating Markdown syntax.

There are a few points where I disagree.

Forking WordPress would mean keeping loads of legacy code. It would also mean you'd be binding a future platform for publishing to technologies WordPress adopted nearly a decade ago. Why use PHP? Perhaps Python, Ruby or server-side JavaScript (Node.js) are better choices. Why use MySQL? MongoDB or PostgreSQL may be a better fit.

Wouldn't merging 8+ configurable plugins into core be contradictory to avoiding bloat? Shouldn't you start with a clean slate? The plugin system is a great way to customize your environment to fit your individual needs. If you add defaults, you make it less personalized. You also add more bloat by adding functionality not everyone wants.

Re: Ghost — rethinking WordPress

#199

Post by isaackeyet »

gozmike wrote: post #102
photomatt wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No reason to be sad -- imagine a platform that you can stay on whether you're posting pictures of your food to a few dozen people (as I do) or the NYT FiveThirtyEight blog covering the election, to all of Wired.com. That's democratizing publishing.

That's a great perspective and why I'm head over heels for WordPress as a platform for publishers of all shapes and sizes (and have built a company around it) Then again, this versatility has its drawbacks. We're constantly challenged by the complexity of building a mobile viewport onto WordPress and present it in a way that makes reading, discussing and sharing this kind of content. The options for publishers are li…

Mobile WordPress is not something that is going to be done and figured out in a day. As devices and peoples usage patterns evolve, over time we'll have to adjust to this as well. And while all of us take smart phones and tablets for granted now, only a small subset of this world's population has such devices to connect to the Internet. Many use much simpler phones and devices, and so to truly democratize publishing it can't stop with a fancy iOS app.

In core WordPress we'll track our progress and discuss over on the Make/Mobile blog. Feel free to chime in there! http://make.wordpress.org/mobile

Re: Ghost — rethinking WordPress

#200

Post by 46Bit »

voidfiles wrote: post #192
filmgirlcw wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I know I'm on the fringe but I make my living as a writer and 100% of my work is written in Markdown (MultiMarkdown, actually) that I then convert to HTML to paste into WordPress. Is it perfect for everyone, no, but for the subset of users who want to roll their own server setup and still have an easy-to-use publishing platform, it sure does fill a lot of boxes. Moreover, I can teach people Markdown 10x f…

You aren't alone. There is actually a version of Markdown for writing Screenplays. When writers adopt Markdown then I am not sure who Markdown is not for.

Markdown as I see it is for those who are trying to emphasise the text over style, which especially means writers. What it doesn't mean is random webforums where every second post has a rainbow of colours, boldings and so forth.
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