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Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

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Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#401

Post by bigyabai »

ndiddy wrote: post #380
bigyabai wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The desktop sure, but the primary handheld mode uses Gamescope which is a Wayland-based session.

It's true that Gamescope is a Wayland compositor, but it does not support Wayland clients ("native Wayland programs" if you're unfamiliar with *nix terminology). In handheld mode, everything you see on your screen is an X11 client running under Xwayland. I have no interest in arguing over whether X11 or Wayland is better (I've used both and both work fine for me) but I would not use the Steam Deck to argue that Wayla…

Using Xwayland is using Wayland. It's entirely a moot point anyways, since Wine/Proton supports a native Wayland background these days anyhow.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#402

Post by dismalaf »

darthoctopus wrote: post #255
palata wrote: post #17

Disclaimer: I don't have any skin in this game, I was fine with X11 and I am fine with Wayland, and I actually think it's nice to have both (and more, like Xlibre I think?). I understand complaints about systemd, I don't understand the complaints about Wayland. This whole article sounds like a big rant and doesn't seem to bring much information. > I also don't care for the "security" argument when parts of the core r…

> Who is forced to use it? Just use X11, as you said (many times) you do already. I can no longer use GNOME on X11, and the decision to remove support was a deliberate one. Users are definitely being forced.

You're not forced to use Gnome. The Gnome devs have the freedom to decide they don't want to spend their own time maintaining an X11 version.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#403

Post by nickelpro »

uecker wrote: post #254
nickelpro wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. X11's problems were rooted in the abstractions presented by the X11 core protocol and its extension mechanisms. The interface, not merely the implementation. Wayland was correct in first focusing on replacing this interface. The problem is the effort stopped there and left the ecosystem to figure out the implementation part.

What exactly do you think are the problems in X11 core protocol and extension mechanism that required to start from scratch?

Don't take it from me, Daniel Stone has a whole talk on the motivation for Wayland: https://youtu.be/RIctzAQOe44

Broadly, the X Server has a bunch of capabilities which are irrelevant. The modern model is really Window Compositor based, and the X Server protocol is just a pointless middle man in that exchange.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#404

Post by kibwen »

throw0101c wrote: post #353
kibwen wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all open-source. If you think the maintainers are trying to sabotage the codebase, you have the freedom to fork it.

> If you think the maintainers are trying to sabotage the codebase, you have the freedom to fork it. But do you have the skill to actually maintain that fork? Do you have the time to keep it going?

We all need to decide where to spend our efforts. If you decide that maintaining a fork isn't worth your time, then that's a revelation of your own preferences.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#405

Post by kibwen »

coldtea wrote: post #339
kibwen wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all open-source. If you think the maintainers are trying to sabotage the codebase, you have the freedom to fork it.

"If you don't like the direction of a multi-decade-long, hundreds of manyears, deeply esoteric project, you have the freedom to go in, fork it, and maintain it" is the most technically true, practically meaningless argument in FOSS

And? I'm tired of thoughtless drive-by comments pointing out problems with a given solution without proposing any alternatives, which tends to be a tacit admission that there is no better solution. If you think you have a better solution, let's hear it:

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#406

Post by tliltocatl »

kps wrote: post #374
tmtvl wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Desktop mode on the Steam Deck uses X11. I think that's why the brightness control is fucked up (ever notice how the brightness is always 40% when you switch to desktop mode?). You can manually switch it to Wayland, but Steam input is broken under Wayland (or at least it was last time I checked, which is admittedly half a year ago or something).

> input is broken under Wayland Drop the ‘Steam’, it's cleaner. Wayland's raison d'etre is to push frame buffers without tearing. Input is an afterthought.

> Input is an afterthought

This. You need more than graphics to have a windowing system. Wayland team threw out X11, did graphics and left the rest for the others to figure out.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#407

Post by glouwbug »

atomicnumber3 wrote: post #53
martinald wrote: post #7

FWIW I recently switched full time to Linux and have had absolutely 0 problems with GNOME, Wayland and Fedora, though I am using an AMD GPU. wl-copy works fine, askpass works, copy and paste works, screen sharing with Google Meet works, drag and drop works. Using an iphone as a webcam works as does recording my screen. Most importantly using multiple monitors with fractional scaling works perfectly. AFIAK this is not…

You don't even need fedora - clean arch install, install vim gnome and Firefox, and boom your computer now just works.

Hyprlands been making waves

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#408

Post by tliltocatl »

dismalaf wrote: post #400
tliltocatl wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Games isn't exactly the best stress test for a windowing system. Most (if not all) run in full-screen mode and don't really use it much after the launch. And that's not what desktop computing is about. You want to run multiple programs, you want them to integrate with each other. But games don't need any of this.

> you want them to integrate with each other. Do you? Not going to lie, I'm perfectly happy just using the apps I want to use and having none of them talk to each other. 90% of my use is covered by Vivaldi (browser stuff which is most stuff these days) and Kitty (Neovim, random TUIs and utilities). The few other apps I have are Steam, Krita and Blender, which are all worlds unto themselves and have no need to integra…

I don't disagree in principle, my workflow is pretty similar, most of the integration part goes thru kitty for me too. But I also need need screenshot and screencast - which need special permission in Wayland because reasons. Fine for me, but I can imagine some having their workflow around specific tools, that might or might not work with Wayland - and apparently, Wayland team thinks it's not their problem.

And I personally need kicad - it doesn't support Wayland at all because of some mouse-related stuff. Again, Wayland team thinks it's not their problem.

Then I had a lots of issues with a graphics tablet. Yes, it's a cheap chinesium knock-off, but it does work on X11. Wayland - no chance and it's obviously not their problem.

So I dropped Wayland altogether and went to X11/herbstluftwm. Was a few years ago, but I didn't bother to go back since - why should I? These aren't their problem, but now I don't use Wayland anymore, so these aren't my problem either.

What I'm trying to say, "hundreds of thousands of gamers stress-testing" have very little to say about usability. Yes the graphics part is excellent, nobody is denying that. There is more to a WM then graphics.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#409

Post by esseph »

cwnyth wrote: post #361
esseph wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just played Skylines last night via Proton-GE. AMD GPU. Fedora 43. Gnome.

CS1, right? If so, can you please detail what you might have done differently?Load options? Some package or another I might be missing? All I know is that with Xorg it worked perfectly, I upgraded Fedora, and now that I only have Wayland, whatever I was doing before no longer works. I'd be grateful for the help.

I am using a system-installed Steam, but sometimes a Steam Flatpak can help with troubleshooting, because it bundles components inside of the flatpak. Running games this way may give you a 5% performance penalty, but it's a good way to see if you have a packaging issue (other things needing installed, or misconfigured).

Also are you running th Linux native one or the proton version?

I run everything through Steam with the proton compatibility layer forced. It's a steam client option somewhere.

I think they're an app called ProtonQT or something like that. It will enable you to easily download the latest proton-ge version. Once downloaded and installed you will need to restart the steam client, then restart the steam client again after selecting the new proton-ge version as the default.

---

https://www.protondb.com/app/255710

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#410

Post by lyu07282 »

dismalaf wrote: post #399
lyu07282 wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and in the west the left is firmly the "establishment" When I think of the left i think of socialists and anarchists, the establishment you mean are liberals, meaning pro-market/privatization/etc. It always amazes me how the right was able to sell themselves as anti-establishment with the average politically uneducated person. The right also pushes the surveillance state forward, the most substantial surveillance l…

You're being intentionally obtuse, shifting the goal posts. It doesn't matter what you claim to think the left is, the left absolutely is the establishment. And if you think there's no authoritarian wing of the left you're either blind or lying. Leftist states are absolutely authoritarian, from the UK jailing people for social media posts to China to extreme examples like NK, Cuba and Venezuela. > right also pushes t…

> There's been recent news pieces here about stuff like age verification that is firmly coming from the left.

California and New York are blue states that implement age verification, but Texas, Alabama and Utah for example also implemented similar laws, it IS bipartisan.

Its a pretty staggering how the right was able to brand themselves this way, the most ideologically authoritarian belief system and people think its 'muh freedom' they fight for. The most ironic thing to me is that in reality they are all just corrupt liberals paid for by the same oligarchy, the atrophied political discourse in the west exists solidly within the very narrow overton window of liberalism.

> NK, Cuba and Venezuela

Its like you think the democratic party or the UK Labor party is ideologically aligned with China, North Korea, Cuba or Venezuela? and your type gets upset that I call you politically illiterate. You will be very confused to learn the left hates Obama or Clinton as much as you do, just for very different reasons you will never understand. All that nonsense just makes you just a loyal soldier for fascists.

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