Below is what my understanding: Current energy storage mechanisms (batteries) are inefficient. In theory one way to store energy that would be more efficient (why?) is to use the energy to compress air (with a conventional air compressor?). The air is stored in a container until it is converted to electrical energy through some inverse process (powering rotary screws?). Unfortunately compressed air is very hot and difficult to store. Instead water droplets can be injected into the compressed air container. These droplets will absorb most of the energy of the compressed air. The vapour is separated from the compressed air and stored in other containers (still as vapour?). How is the vapour then converted back to electrical energy? Isn't the vapour just as hot as the compressed air? Is it easier to deal with because it can be stored in a larger volume?
Peter Thiel, Bill Gates, Khosla fund LightSail Energy in $37M Deal
31–40 of 135 posts
Re: Peter Thiel, Bill Gates, Khosla fund LightSail Energy in $37M Deal
#32Series D and they don't have a product? :eyeroll:
Yes because only in magic software wonderland can you have millions of users before you have any money. Once you exit the software bubble, almost everything, especially new technology, becomes a lot "harder" and takes a lot longer.
I've done hardware in spades, so I'm well aware of the differences. In hardware, Series D was either a Mezzanine round or a something-has-gone-wrong = inside/major-dilution round
Maybe the world has changed, but having no product at D is not a sign that things are going well on the biz side.
Re: Peter Thiel, Bill Gates, Khosla fund LightSail Energy in $37M Deal
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
A knee-jerk reaction by poorly informed and motivated reviewers, which included a fear of: - Hydrolock (solved by default) - Corrosion (solved) - Inability to separate water and air (easy to solve and quickly solved) - a lack of understanding that water could provide heat to air on expansion (proven...) We actually disproved all of their claims within 2 weeks of their decision. The problem, however, is that you don't…
Yay, so DOE funding not only has false positives (Solyndra, at the point where they were clearly doomed by cheap Chinese imports) but also false negatives.
Re: Peter Thiel, Bill Gates, Khosla fund LightSail Energy in $37M Deal
#34If there is one person that I wish would find a connection like this it is you, I'm sure you'll amaze us all with what you're going to achieve now that your toolbox is filled.
This is really great news!
Re: Peter Thiel, Bill Gates, Khosla fund LightSail Energy in $37M Deal
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
FWIW, Peter Thiel is totally awesome, and one of the most rational and brilliant and human people I know.
I'm dying to know more about the brilliant non-human people you know =-)
Re: Peter Thiel, Bill Gates, Khosla fund LightSail Energy in $37M Deal
#36Can you explain in detail what problem this solves and how it works to someone with a basic background in physics? Below is what my understanding: Current energy storage mechanisms (batteries) are inefficient. In theory one way to store energy that would be more efficient (why?) is to use the energy to compress air (with a conventional air compressor?). The air is stored in a container until it is converted to electr…
I think maybe the novel thing is to pass the water as a mist through the compressor cylinders where it can transfer energy from air much faster than if, for example there was just a heat transfer closed circuit around the cylinders.
Their website states: "We have achieved these high thermodynamic efficiencies at higher RPMs than many thought possible. This is crucial to achieving low cost: the higher the RPM, the higher the power of the same machine and the lower the cost per kW."
So basically you need fewer compressors and heat transfer systems for the same amount of power. I guess as long as the added complexity and maintenance doesn't add too much cost it could be more economical than using the higher number of compressors.
They do mention in the WSJ article that one challenge is preventing 'hydrolock' which, if I understand correctly, would happen if you accidentally injected too much water in a cylinder. Since water is not compressible, you could bend or break your piston rod, crank shaft or 'cause the cylinder to explode'.
Re: Peter Thiel, Bill Gates, Khosla fund LightSail Energy in $37M Deal
#37Here's my attempt to answer that question:
The first stop is to get a sense of what the realistic energy density of these approaches might be. A quick search lands you here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage#E...
My take-away: 1 m3 of air = about 300,000 J
How much energy does a typical house in the US use per day?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_electricity_does_an_avera...
I'll use 50KWh per day
1kWh = 1,000W x 3,600s = 3,600,000J
This typical house, then, consumes 180,000,000J per day
How much air do we need to compress to provide all of the energy needs of this one house (per day)?
180,000,000J / 300,000J = 600 m3
How many homes in California?
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/06037.html
Let's say it's about 14,000,000 homes
How much air do we have to compress every day to service these homes:
600 m3 x 14,000,000 homes = 8,400,000,000 m3
OK, there's a number, whatever it means.
Hmmm. How much of the available air are we using?
What's the volume of air of the atmosphere?
Tough question to answer. I think the number we'd want would be that of the Troposphere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth
I am going to use an over-simplification (you know, "assume a cow is a uniform sphere of milk" type stuff) to try to get a number. Sphere within a sphere to get the volume of the troposphere.
Average Earth diameter: 12,742km
http://www.universetoday.com/15055/diameter-of-earth/
Troposphere thickness: 17km
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troposphere
Troposphere volume: 4,341,334,943,758,290,000 m3
That means that California would use 0.00000019% of the troposphere per day if every single home was powered using compressed air energy storage.
Put a different way: It would take nearly 1.5 million years to process all of the air in the troposphere.
I'm not sure if the above is complete nonsense or not. The problem is far more complex than these quickie calculations might suggest. On first inspection it sounds like we have plenty of air to go around.
Would there be any environmental and/or air quality issues stemming from this approach? Do we end-up with cleaner air locally because of the process?
Interesting stuff.
.
EDIT: A few more data points.
How big of a container is required to store all of this air?
The original assumption was that 1 m3 of air would compress into a 5L bottle, or 0.005 m3.
Storage cube side length: 348m
Storage sphere diameter: 431m
How much would this much air weigh?
1 m3 of air at 20C = 1.204 kg
8,400,000,000 m3 = 10,113,600,000 kg
The question, for me, begins to be about how realistic it might be to construct enough smaller storage vessels to capture this volume safely.
The article mentions something about 40ft standard shipping containers. Assuming that the storage vessel has the internal dimensions of a standard 40ft container:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_container
Container volume: ~ 67 m3
Containers required to store enough compressed air to supply homes in California: ~627,000 units.
That's a lot of containers, even if the calculations are off by 100%.
Re: Peter Thiel, Bill Gates, Khosla fund LightSail Energy in $37M Deal
#38Re: Peter Thiel, Bill Gates, Khosla fund LightSail Energy in $37M Deal
#39How much air would you need to supply all the power required by all the homes in California? Here's my attempt to answer that question: The first stop is to get a sense of what the realistic energy density of these approaches might be. A quick search lands you here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage#E... My take-away: 1 m3 of air = about 300,000 J How much energy does a typical house in the U…
This is akin to a battery, so there is a 'charge' and a 'discharge' cycle, you'd be using the charge cycle when there is an excess and the discharge when you need more than is available or when the price of your stored energy is lower than what you'd be buying from the grid. So likely while you're charging (I'm assuming that's the better part of a day) you're not consuming from the device.
So your 50KWh initial value is more likely only half of that or even less, the portion that you'd be consuming that was previously stored. I've lived off a 48KWh lead/acid battery and it would - in a very energy efficient home - power the house for up to 5 days before needing a top-up absent sufficient sun and wind. This still holds when the storage capacity is centralized, only the flow would be slightly different and the houses would be in 'sink' mode all the time.
Another point regarding consumption:
Conservation is the best possible starting point for any renewable installation, large scale or small scale does not matter. It is easier to save a KWh than it is to generate or store one, up to a point, so that low hanging fruit is where you start.
Re: Peter Thiel, Bill Gates, Khosla fund LightSail Energy in $37M Deal
#40Can you explain in detail what problem this solves and how it works to someone with a basic background in physics? Below is what my understanding: Current energy storage mechanisms (batteries) are inefficient. In theory one way to store energy that would be more efficient (why?) is to use the energy to compress air (with a conventional air compressor?). The air is stored in a container until it is converted to electr…
Not OP but a few comments on what you just said. If you ever tried to manually compress air in a metal pump (say when inflating a bicycle tire), you probably noticed that the outside of the pump gets very hot when you press down. That is because gases have a property of increasing their temperature when pressure increases. So now in order to maximize your ability to store energy efficiently, you are facing two problems: (1) how to prevent gas from escaping, (2) how to prevent heat from dissipating through pipes/pistons. It looks like OP had managed to solve (2) by efficiently capturing the heat using water vapor, though I'm not sure about specifics.
Water vapor sounds like a good (if obvious) solution since water has the third highest specific heat capacity of all liquids, after ammonia and liquid lithium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_capacity#Table_of_specific...).