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Illinois Introducing Operating System Account Age Bill

ilga.gov

271–280 of 473 posts

Re: Illinois Introducing Operating System Account Age Bill

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've accepted the overton window shift that age verification is an inevitability and that we need to give up information to the operating system because any other way would violate our privacy! It's naive to see this internationally coordinated effort to "save the children" as anything other than the temperature in the pot being turned up. > implemented in a competent way (ie. it's not just providing an id scan for…

I find it odd when people write off policies as using “save the children” or “protect women” as if this isn’t something people are really capable of thinking. You fail to understand why the Overton window has shifted because you fail to understand people really are worried about their children

I don't know of any surveillance state act that used "protect women" as their top line, but maybe I missed it.

> because you fail to understand people really are worried about their children

No, I completely understand but that doesn't give anyone the right to start mandating that we give up our privacy in pursuit of that. That's sorta the joke with "save the children", it's meant to tug at your emotions and make you look like a bad person for not consenting to massive overreach.

Re: Illinois Introducing Operating System Account Age Bill

#272
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which situation do you want instead of anonymous age verification: A) 18+ content is behind a pinky swear B) 18+ content is behind a parental control (what this bill would do) C) The internet can't have 18+ content anymore D) Some other system? Please describe it.

(A), honestly. You might think you can keep 16 year olds from looking at porn, if they want to. You can't. You have never been able to. All you can do is teach them that the law is stupid and pointless, and they should treat rules with contempt. But they'll still be able to look at porn. What you can do is allow the government and private companies to track everyone, everywhere, all the time. And you can create more…

Yeah, I agree with this. I think age-related content moderation is a losing fight and one that will create more contempt for laws, more surveillance, and much more PII surface area that will be exploited.

There are really two "core" issues at play:

1. The prudish nature of US society

2. The fact that we don't have data privacy laws and restrictions on digital surveillance by private companies

Re: Illinois Introducing Operating System Account Age Bill

#273
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, sorry yes that was an oversimplification. Android does ask your age as well, so that's all of them for mobile phones.

Android doesn't ask your age, Google does for an account. You can use an android phone without a google account. Most people don't but the distinction is important because degoogled android phones will also have to comply.

No, unless the law mandates it.

So for example operating system that does not ask this question could simply declare itself "inappropriate"/"illegal" in the jurisdiction.

Say, GrapheneOS can explicitly disallow image downloads from Californian IPs and not sell phones with preinstalled GOS there.

You don't need to be complaint with the Mongolian law to sell in Burkina Faso.

Similarly they don't need to be complaint with Ohio law if they do not operate and have presence there.

American companies that decide to surveil users ont heir websites with pervasive tracking without consent would only contravene the European GDPR if they allowed EU users to use them. Block the EU (famous http/451), and they're in the clear.

IMO, but IANAL.

Re: Illinois Introducing Operating System Account Age Bill

#274
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids aren't stupid. They'll just create another account when they're old enough to figure it out. They'll tell their friends how to do it and the rest of us will be stuck with these stupid prompts forever like it's a cookie banner.

So you're advocating for stronger and more invasive controls?... I think this is a sensible compromise. It gives parents more control than before without relying on shady third-party software or without turning every platform into a cop. Yeah, it also aligns with Meta's interests, but so what? The age attestation solutions pursued by the EU are far more invasive in this respect, even though they notionally protect id…

> I think this is a sensible compromise. It gives parents more control than before without relying on shady third-party software or without turning every platform into a cop.

It doesn't give parents any control whatsoever. It just forces the OS to tell every website your child goes to how old they are. It doesn't require those websites to hide certain content for certain age groups. It doesn't define what types of content are appropriate for which age groups, it just makes sure that every advertiser bidding on your child's eyes knows what age range they fall into to.

If anything this takes control away from parents because even the cases where a website does their best to restrict content based on which age the OS tells them your kid is, it's the website setting the rules and not the parents. You might think that your 16 year old can read an article about STDs, but if the website your kid visits doesn't think so you as the parent don't get any choice.

With 3rd party software parents are controlling what software is used, they have the ability to decide which kinds of content are appropriate for their children and can be allowed and which types of content should be blocked. They can black/whitelist as they see fit. All of the power is in the parent's hands. This law gives parents one choice only: "Do I honestly tell my OS how old my child is". That's the end of the parent's involvement and the end of their power.

Re: Illinois Introducing Operating System Account Age Bill

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, and hear me out, _maybe our computers shouldn't spy on us in the first place_?

So which situation do you want instead of anonymous age verification: A) 18+ content is behind a pinky swear B) 18+ content is behind a parental control (what this bill would do) C) The internet can't have 18+ content anymore D) Some other system? Please describe it.

A), which is the status quo. I don't see any other option as realistic.

B) makes things worse in several ways, but primarily by stifling innovation. Only large incumbents will have no trouble paying for the measures required to ensure compliance.

There's also the cost of enforcement, which will likely have to be borne by the taxpayers. I don't think this is a good thing to spend money on.

C) cannot be enforced, and any good faith attempts will cost more than the damage from harm they're supposed to prevent.

Re: Illinois Introducing Operating System Account Age Bill

#277
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which situation do you want instead of anonymous age verification: A) 18+ content is behind a pinky swear B) 18+ content is behind a parental control (what this bill would do) C) The internet can't have 18+ content anymore D) Some other system? Please describe it.

(A), honestly. You might think you can keep 16 year olds from looking at porn, if they want to. You can't. You have never been able to. All you can do is teach them that the law is stupid and pointless, and they should treat rules with contempt. But they'll still be able to look at porn. What you can do is allow the government and private companies to track everyone, everywhere, all the time. And you can create more…

I'm not overly concerned with 16 year olds. But the tools for protecting younger children suck. A consistent account setting and header would do a lot to improve parental controls.

> What you can do is allow the government and private companies to track everyone, everywhere, all the time. And you can create more gatekeepers that hold personal identity data, misuse it, and leak it.

This is already happening. A central setting would improve privacy over the way things are right now.

Re: Illinois Introducing Operating System Account Age Bill

#278

If I’m not mistaken, Meta has been lobbying heavily for all of these age-verification bills lately. It seems their strategy is to externalize their responsibility to verify age themselves, and thus reduce their exposure to liabilities when child protection acts like COPPA are violated.

Facebook has always been there for only one reason; for people who don't value privacy.

Nothing less, nothing more.

Most things that are not suitable for children were recognized so long ago that it was decades, centuries, or millennia before anybody living was ever born.

Like porn, when it got on the web it has always been instinctively gatekept as traditionally as possible, and complaints which do arise over the decades are addressed by the websites in ways that measure up to how you expect a company to act. Consistent with the way they truly don't want underage visitors to their websites at all.

Those complaints are now dwarfed by what parents are saying about Facebook in particular.

Facebook, and now Meta, is just not something that previous generations had to deal with, so it didn't get handled in a very adult way as it should have been from the beginning. And it only got worse as it got bigger.

If it wasn't worse for their kids than porn, parents wouldn't be screaming so much louder than ever.

I guess it turns out the combination of fundamentally devaluing privacy across-the-board including minors is the main problem, and then the idea of hooking them early, like cigarette companies would do with as much habit-forming reinforcement as possible, is what leverages the lack of overall privacy through the roof.

What's really needed is bold gatekeeping on Meta's digressions alone, they should be the ones to aggressively keep everyone underage off their site. Like they really mean it, which has not existed before. That's what's been wrong the whole time, the internet was so much better before Facebook came along with their anti-privacy mission, and it got put on steroids.

Reining in Meta alone should be big enough to be noticeable, no-one else has a shred of responsibility by comparison.

Facebook has invested $billions in these underage crowds and they want to know exactly when everyone else on the internet turns a certain age even if they are not on Facebook.

Don't give it to them no matter how much they pay.

It would be the complete opposite of an advanced thinker who wants to respond by compromising more people's privacy across the regular internet, when Meta is the primary source of the problem, and they're who stand to benefit the more privacy is compromised in any way, child or adult.

Like my 19th century grandmother would say, "what's wrong with some people?"

Re: Illinois Introducing Operating System Account Age Bill

#279
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be externalized to a degree. Facebook shouldn't be the ones verifying age, but there should be a trusted 3rd party service that does that, which just tells facebook "yes this user is old enough to use your service" or "no they're not old enough". It abso-fucking-lutely should not be at the OS level though, for so many reasons. Even the implementation alone would be a nightmare. Do I need to input my ID to u…

Except none of these bills (California or the one in question) as currently written require an ID to actually be verified, merely that the user provide an age. This seems intentional as it's seems to solve the user journey where a parent is able to set a reasonable default by simply setting up an associated account age at account creation. It's effectively just standardizing parental controls. I think this is a reaso…

Except how is this done on GNU/Linux or FreeBSD or Haiku? Who's going to implement it, who's going to ensure it can't be bypassed and who's going to be responsible if it's not?

Re: Illinois Introducing Operating System Account Age Bill

#280
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about OSes that power shared devices you use in public, like airline ticket kiosks and bank ATMs?

I'm fine with default settings: > for all users that the operator has actual knowledge to be a minor, the operator shall use specified default settings for the minor. I just think it should be opt-in. Applications should presume <13 unless the user opts in.

I'm fine with that too as a consumer.

As an "operating system provider," the law as written still requires me to provide an accessible interface for you to indicate your age to the operator.

Should we be asking your age every single time you use a credit card reader or ATM? If not, embedded operating system providers need exceptions to the law in each state that adopts their own non-standardized approach.

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