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Human Rights Watch says drone strikes in Haiti have killed nearly 1,250 people

haitiantimes.com

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Re: Human Rights Watch says drone strikes in Haiti have killed nearly 1,250 people

#111

Post by mmooss »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #109
mmooss wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People's rights are not luxuries, but the purpose of government: "... to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men ...". They are a necessity to achieve freedom and stability.

Natural rights do not exist. There is nothing natural about freedom. Every right we have we fought tirelessly for. If we forget the struggle we went through to obtain freedom we can easily abandon the cause and lose that freedom.

While I mostly agree, freedom as a universal right does exist; not everyone can exercise it, but that doesn't make it less of a right.

And it is 'natural' in the sense that it is valued ~~ universally. I can't establish objectively that it is valued everywhere, of course; I can establish that people en masse have valued it and fought for it all over the world, from Europe to South Asia to SE Asia to East Asia; in Africa, to all of the Americas.

Re: Human Rights Watch says drone strikes in Haiti have killed nearly 1,250 people

#112

Post by HDThoreaun »

mmooss wrote: post #111
HDThoreaun wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural rights do not exist. There is nothing natural about freedom. Every right we have we fought tirelessly for. If we forget the struggle we went through to obtain freedom we can easily abandon the cause and lose that freedom.

While I mostly agree, freedom as a universal right does exist; not everyone can exercise it, but that doesn't make it less of a right. And it is 'natural' in the sense that it is valued ~~ universally. I can't establish objectively that it is valued everywhere, of course; I can establish that people en masse have valued it and fought for it all over the world, from Europe to South Asia to SE Asia to East Asia; in Afr…

Well the issue here is that value is a spectrum. Having rights involves trade offs, take a look at singapore. I do not think it is in any way self evident that all people value each of their rights the way that you do. In el salvador the people gladly gave up their rights to obtain order, and now they have one of the most popular governments in the world even though they do not have very much freedom at all. For you to carte blanche say the el salvandorans are wrong to be happy with that trade off is naive and incredibly paternalistic. The same is true of the situation in Haiti.

Re: Human Rights Watch says drone strikes in Haiti have killed nearly 1,250 people

#113

Post by mmooss »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #112
mmooss wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I mostly agree, freedom as a universal right does exist; not everyone can exercise it, but that doesn't make it less of a right. And it is 'natural' in the sense that it is valued ~~ universally. I can't establish objectively that it is valued everywhere, of course; I can establish that people en masse have valued it and fought for it all over the world, from Europe to South Asia to SE Asia to East Asia; in Afr…

Well the issue here is that value is a spectrum. Having rights involves trade offs, take a look at singapore. I do not think it is in any way self evident that all people value each of their rights the way that you do. In el salvador the people gladly gave up their rights to obtain order, and now they have one of the most popular governments in the world even though they do not have very much freedom at all. For you…

These are the same old argument that the dictators have made for generations. 'People here don't value freedom'; 'it's just your opinion'. They are called universal rights for a reason, and finding one popular dictator (in a world of fascist propaganda) while democracy and freedom have swept the world is not significant.

And if you say, who are you or am I to tell them what they value? Who are the dictators? If we can't morally, then you agree they have a right to self-determination, or freedom.

Re: Human Rights Watch says drone strikes in Haiti have killed nearly 1,250 people

#114

Post by 01100011 »

jkman wrote: post #103
mmooss wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's all the more reason they need a real government that protects people's rights. The anti-freedom crowd always finds an excuse to disregard others' rights, liberty, and welfare, to impose what they want to do on others. They do it in the US too. Plenty of places like Haiti just put civilians in the battleground between two equal and equally bad sides, the military and the insurgents. Both sides give the sam…

That is naive. 'they need a real government that protects people's rights' and this government will magically materialize out of thin air and institute an island paradise, right? You can't even meaningfully discuss a real 'military' in Haiti, it is a failed state with minimal control of even their capital city.

This is a very common view among people who have grown up in the west. Some form of "people are inherently good, governments will spontaneously form and will be altruistic unless a bad minority does otherwise."

It's strange because the dominant religion in the west has as a fundamental tenet that people are inherently bad. But I digress...

Unless one is some form of deist who believes there is a top-tier authority who is active in bending the fate of the world, there is no reason to believe rights are natural or exist in any way absent the will of the powerful. It's a sad conclusion but the only one I can come up with after 50 trips around the sun.

Re: Human Rights Watch says drone strikes in Haiti have killed nearly 1,250 people

#115

Post by HDThoreaun »

mmooss wrote: post #113
HDThoreaun wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the issue here is that value is a spectrum. Having rights involves trade offs, take a look at singapore. I do not think it is in any way self evident that all people value each of their rights the way that you do. In el salvador the people gladly gave up their rights to obtain order, and now they have one of the most popular governments in the world even though they do not have very much freedom at all. For you…

These are the same old argument that the dictators have made for generations. 'People here don't value freedom'; 'it's just your opinion'. They are called universal rights for a reason, and finding one popular dictator (in a world of fascist propaganda) while democracy and freedom have swept the world is not significant. And if you say, who are you or am I to tell them what they value? Who are the dictators? If we ca…

> you agree they have a right to self-determination, or freedom.

Certainly I think all people should have say over how they are governed. Whether they use that say to give themselves freedom is another question.

> 'People here don't value freedom'

No one is saying this. The claim is that some people are willing to sacrifice one thing they value a little (freedom) for something they value more (safety).

I havent spent much time looking into the popular opinion about that trade off in Haiti, but to claim that they should never make it as you claim takes away their self determination. If your claim was that Haitans are by and large unhappy with the drone program that would be a different story, but to just say handling criminals extrajudicially is unacceptable no matter what strikes me as naive

Re: Human Rights Watch says drone strikes in Haiti have killed nearly 1,250 people

#116

Post by Anamon »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #110
rexpop wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The use of drones in these areas causes more collateral damage among the civilian population than it truly neutralizes gangs."

Only 5% of the deaths seem to be collateral damage. There can be no freedom without order.

A permanent, non-negligible chance of becoming a collateral victim in an extrajudicial drone killing doesn't sound like order to me.

TFA mentions residents are very scared. They live in a war zone.

Edit: I get the argument that it was a war zone anyway and people are also afraid of the gangs. But that comes from the fallacy of seeing the drone strikes as the only option. There are better ways to create order than creating even more chaos and hope it hits the right people sometimes.

Re: Human Rights Watch says drone strikes in Haiti have killed nearly 1,250 people

#117

Post by RS-232 »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #24
mentalgear wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do all the worst companies in the world have in common? Blackstone, Blackrock, Blackwater ..? Always that Black prefix, like something out of a bad action movie.

Also Black Cube, I had a long list but seem to have misplaced it. Black seems to hint at secretive when you can say spy agency.

Look into the black cube of Saturn.

(btw, it’s everywhere, even the kaaba)

Re: Human Rights Watch says drone strikes in Haiti have killed nearly 1,250 people

#118

Post by HDThoreaun »

Anamon wrote: post #116
HDThoreaun wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 5% of the deaths seem to be collateral damage. There can be no freedom without order.

A permanent, non-negligible chance of becoming a collateral victim in an extrajudicial drone killing doesn't sound like order to me. TFA mentions residents are very scared. They live in a war zone. Edit: I get the argument that it was a war zone anyway and people are also afraid of the gangs. But that comes from the fallacy of seeing the drone strikes as the only option. There are better ways to create order than cre…

Haiti has been a shit show for like 200 years now. You don’t think they’ve tried every method they can think of to deal with the criminals? What are the better methods to deal with chaos that they have been ignoring?

Re: Human Rights Watch says drone strikes in Haiti have killed nearly 1,250 people

#119

Post by HuaraHuara2 »

mmooss wrote: post #104
jkman wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is naive. 'they need a real government that protects people's rights' and this government will magically materialize out of thin air and institute an island paradise, right? You can't even meaningfully discuss a real 'military' in Haiti, it is a failed state with minimal control of even their capital city.

> naive Exactly the words used by the enemies of freedom: 'It's naive!' It's predictable. Nobody said anything about easy. Murdering civilians is easy, I suppose, but not a route to a solution nor an acceptable means.

America has always been blessed with great geography, natural resources, an educated populace, and an inventive, optimistic spirit. That is to say, Americans have never suffered and as such, cannot comprehend suffering. Thus Americans are blind and naive to injustices they have never faced.

Re: Human Rights Watch says drone strikes in Haiti have killed nearly 1,250 people

#120

Post by mmooss »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #115
mmooss wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are the same old argument that the dictators have made for generations. 'People here don't value freedom'; 'it's just your opinion'. They are called universal rights for a reason, and finding one popular dictator (in a world of fascist propaganda) while democracy and freedom have swept the world is not significant. And if you say, who are you or am I to tell them what they value? Who are the dictators? If we ca…

> you agree they have a right to self-determination, or freedom. Certainly I think all people should have say over how they are governed. Whether they use that say to give themselves freedom is another question. > 'People here don't value freedom' No one is saying this. The claim is that some people are willing to sacrifice one thing they value a little (freedom) for something they value more (safety). I havent spent…

> The claim is that some people are willing to sacrifice one thing they value a little (freedom) for something they value more (safety).

You're assuming what they value more. Also, without freedom there is little safety. Without freedom of speech, etc., you can't have a free election where people can have self-determination.

And without universal rights, if some voters can take rights from other voters, nobody is safe or has self-determination.

> handling criminals extrajudicially is unacceptable no matter what strikes me as naive

You are naive to the age-old excuses of state murder and oppression. It's not only criminals (how do you even know who is a criminal?) and it's not going to stop. Do you think the mercenaries and others running the drones care? Do you think they won't murder people for their own benefit or through sheer recklessness and contempt for human life? There's a reason we have limited government and courts. That's why Haiti is in this current state - prior murderers who did the same. Murder is how they seized power and murder is how they kept it.

You'll notice that stable governments are not founded on extrajudicial state murder. That's not what Washington, Jefferson, etc. did.

In warfare, combatants are killed without trial but within the laws of warfare. Even there, extralegal killing is murder.

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