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“This is not the computer for you”

samhenri.gold

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Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#221

Post by zozbot234 »

TheDong wrote: post #32
wolvoleo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't install a different OS on these? Are they different from the M series? Because those have Asahi Linux.

Asahi linux effectively only supports the M1 and M2 chips, so even a modern macbook air won't work, and even on "supported devices" you can't use thunderbolt or a usb-c display yet. These use the A series chip, and even supporting new M chip revisions has been enough of an undertaking that I wouldn't really expect this to get Asahi linux anytime soon.... And apple can lock down the bootloader to be closer to the iPad…

The Asahi folks have also demonstrated M3 support, though without GPU-accelerated graphics (the M3 GPU is very different from the M1 or M2). Much of the effort is currently on getting the existing components upstream.

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#222

Post by butILoveLife »

hylaride wrote: post #217
butILoveLife wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Macbook Neo is an awesome machine for it's cost/value Uh... if you need to compile for iOS, sure. But outside of that, no its not. You are literally just paying the Apple tax that they deliberately choose.

Look, MacOS has certainly rotted over the past few years, but the primary reason I use it is because it's still a hundred times nicer to use than Windows (which is also regressing for worse reasons - shoving in AI and ads instead of benign neglect). It's still the best desktop UNIX experience, especially since cheap PC laptops (and until very recently expensive ones) almost always have horrible build quality. It's al…

Oh man, you NEED to use Fedora.

Fedora is the best OS humanity has ever made. No exaguration. There needs to be the best, and its Fedora.

Linux gets a bad reputation because 20-ish years ago Ubuntu sent out free CDs and became the dominant OS. Ubuntu/Mint is part of Debian family, outdated linux. They call outdated Linux 'stable', but its not stable like a table. Its software version frozen. Bugs that are fixed today wont get those fixes for 2 years. Not to mention, a new mouse you buy from amazon/nvidia card/web video player wont work due to the outdated nature of these distros. (And yes, I know you can do surgery to update it, but no one likes that)

Fedora is not Arch. Fedora is the consumer grade Red Hat.

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#223

Post by zozbot234 »

adrian_b wrote: post #128
MBCook wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no reason they couldn’t. But we know there’s lots of other models that they’re already working on. We don’t know how similar or different it is from an OS perspective.

The reason is the lack of documentation from Apple. Reverse engineering needs a lot of time and hard work, which may not be worthwhile. Sometimes someone does this work, and everyone may benefit from it, but you should never count on this happening, unless you do the work yourself.

Reverse engineered documentation is very often preferable to the internal kind, which is not necessarily accurate. So either way, the Asahi folks are doing valuable work.

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#224

Post by creshal »

saagarjha wrote: post #168
mr_briggs wrote: post #151

> A Chromebook’s ceiling is made of web browser, and the things you run into are not the edges of computing but the edges of a product category designed to save you from yourself. I'm in the same boat as the author; I cut my teeth on a hand-me-down 2005 eMac, then a hand-me-down 2008 Macbook, before finally getting my own 2011 iMac. I think this is overly harsh on Chromebooks given they belong to the cheaper end of t…

When Chromebooks originally came out, that was not an option. And almost all school-issued computers will not let you do this.

That includes school-issued Macs, so I don't see how that's an argument against Chromebooks.

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#225

Post by NikolaNovak »

1. This is the most optimistic, inspirational thing I've read in months :)

2. Are there kids like that still?? I would love to think so. None of the kids in my circle of parents are. There is one teenager who's going into computer science because they are smart and love math, which is great, but they never built or explored or been curious about anything on their computer as far as I can tell. There is a big ecosystem of wish fulfilment and instant gratification, and I think (right) limitations like the author insinuated are part of the allure.

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#226

Post by mauzybwy »

mr_briggs wrote: post #151

> A Chromebook’s ceiling is made of web browser, and the things you run into are not the edges of computing but the edges of a product category designed to save you from yourself. I'm in the same boat as the author; I cut my teeth on a hand-me-down 2005 eMac, then a hand-me-down 2008 Macbook, before finally getting my own 2011 iMac. I think this is overly harsh on Chromebooks given they belong to the cheaper end of t…

Man I got a computer engineering degree in 2015 with a $200 Chromebook chrooted into Debian. And I worked professionally for years on an 8gb MacBook Air. The Neo is definitely something younger me would be interested in.

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#227

Post by anthk »

butILoveLife wrote: post #222
hylaride wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, MacOS has certainly rotted over the past few years, but the primary reason I use it is because it's still a hundred times nicer to use than Windows (which is also regressing for worse reasons - shoving in AI and ads instead of benign neglect). It's still the best desktop UNIX experience, especially since cheap PC laptops (and until very recently expensive ones) almost always have horrible build quality. It's al…

Oh man, you NEED to use Fedora. Fedora is the best OS humanity has ever made. No exaguration. There needs to be the best, and its Fedora. Linux gets a bad reputation because 20-ish years ago Ubuntu sent out free CDs and became the dominant OS. Ubuntu/Mint is part of Debian family, outdated linux. They call outdated Linux 'stable', but its not stable like a table. Its software version frozen. Bugs that are fixed today…

Fedora Silverblue it's better and Cosmic Desktop looks good for a DE in every release (upcoming 44). For some isolated and rollbackable option, your only options are Silverblue and Guix for the hard way. If you use Nonguix for Guix, on your own, but I'd only use a nonfree kernel in an emergency (the wireless adapter somehow gets broken and the alternative is to boot the OS with propietary fw in order to buy a new one). And in that case I would blacklist every propietary fw except for the wireless ones.

And, yes, I have an overlaid Linux-Libre kernel in SilverBlue.

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#229

Post by MITSardine »

jayd16 wrote: post #79

The Neo seems kind of nice but I don't really see how it's more significant than "a nice low end computer." The article reads like its fire from Olympus but a nicer screen and trackpad is only incrementally better than what was available in Chromebooks and cheap PCs. Personally I think a the Steam Machine will have a better chance to cheat a general computing device into the home of someone not looking for it. The Ne…

The build quality and usability on mac laptops is something else, I've yet to see even 2k€+ laptops that people typically get for their jobs that aren't a pain to use without a mouse and monitor. Whereas I'm sitting here in front of my macbook and not touching the mouse next to it most of the time.

That's definitely valuable, but not for a child in my opinion, it's the type of luxury equivalent to a Mercedes over a Renault. Perfectly defensible but, just like a Mercedes is hardly a starter car, I don't think an MBP is that fit for a starter PC. It's also mostly useless if you're not traveling for work regularly.

That said, does any of that even matter any more? People were learning Blender, programming and whatever else 15 years ago on low to mid range machines already. The equivalently priced - or dirt cheap second hand - machines of today are multiple times more capable at everything. Stick Linux and a $5 mouse in it and you're 90% of the way to a macbook pro in terms of user experience.

That's to say, I agree with the core of the article: kids will make the most out of the least. But I disagree that this particular laptop is a necessity or a boon for that. If anything, it's a hindrance for being a mac.

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#230

Post by jjkaczor »

gizajob wrote: post #124
lern_too_spel wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one click to set up a Debian environment on a Chromebook. Same on an Android phone. You can learn plenty from that. Once you've learned the limits of what you can learn within that environment, it's not difficult to then unlock the bootloader and learn even more.

To be honest, anytime I see someone recommending how easy it is to install Debian I always feel like they’re some relic from the nineties. Kids likely won’t follow any advice starting with “install Debian”.

They will if they are at all "technically curious" and bump-up against the limits of "ChromeOS" and running software they want to execute. A couple quick searches will find them some instructions, and boom - after a week or so, they are running Debian, their own Minecraft server, Blender (poorly), or whatever had prompted them to look for alternatives.

Never underestimate the time investment and frugality of a "technically curious" young person... Myself, I would have been a happy end-user, loading/playing games, running software - except, I bought a cheap modem - with physical IRQ jumpers - and no documentation - and it's default jumper settings conflicted with my mouse in Windows. If it hadn't been for that cheap/frugal purchase and then having to invest the time to troubleshoot, I wouldn't have become "technical" and moved on to greater and greater challenges and learning experiences. Most people would have just returned it and got an external modem instead, or given-up on even the possibility of connecting to BBS's...

What is fundamentally different from the late 80's/early 90's, is now there is a tremendous wealth of knowledge on the internet to actually facilitate that troubleshooting type of learning activity. Is that better? Well - there will always be a "known solution", but what I find many people do now, is follow whatever the first set of instructions they find, treating them like a "magical spell", without knowing/learning "why/how"... [And if the first set of instructions doesn't work, the majority just "give up"]

Overall - in my experience, the percentage of people who are truly "technically curious" is about the same as it ever was - single-digits... It ultimately depends on whether or not their interests/passions/blockers align with being forced to go "beyond" their comfort zone.

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