Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#241

Post by cbsmith » Sat, Nov 03, 2012, 12:02 AM UTC

nerdess wrote: post #225

cbsmith wrote: post #42

I'm starting to think it is impossible for someone to write about gender issues in the tech industry without at least one reference to porn.

my article isn't about gender issues....the intention is merely to show the perks of working in IT to a normal average girl that might not be sure about what career path to choose. however, my writing style is indeed rather bold but i have no interest of watering it down with some political correctness filter. sorry, no chance :D

> my article isn't about gender issues....the intention is merely to show the perks of working in IT to a normal average girl that might not be sure about what career path to choose.

I'm trying to comprehend how that isn't about gender issues in the IT business, but let's just say that whatever the appropriate semantic expression was for what it is I was referring to, it includes your work.

>however, my writing style is indeed rather bold but i have no interest of watering it down with some political correctness filter. sorry, no chance :D

Sorry, I wasn't intending to imply you should filter your writing. My comment wasn't really meant to be a criticism of your writing in particular... actually, it wasn't even really a criticism of writing at all. It's more just... I doubt there are other industries where EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE like this would have a reference to porn (well, except for the porn industry ;-).

I don't think it necessarily speaks poorly of the people engaging in the discussion; it reflects where the industry is.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#242

Post by greenyoda » Sat, Nov 03, 2012, 12:04 AM UTC

papsosouid wrote: post #215

eliza1wright wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I apologize because I can't find the exact quote, but I believe Miss Manners said something to the effect of "Flirting, when done properly, means that both parties can claim they meant nothing by it." That's the flirting I speak of, the same sort of flirting/friendliness that was originally mentioned. It's foolish to assert that female approval matters, but darn it, no one knows why! It's just the way it is! In my ex…

>That's the flirting I speak of, the same sort of flirting/friendliness that was originally mentioned I was responding to the idea that being single or not has some effect on the scenario. Flirting (whether deniable or not) is neither exclusive to single people, nor required to affect the social status of men you interact with. >It's foolish to assert that female approval matters, but darn it, no one knows why! It is…

"[Women] are still able to coerce me into doing what they want even though both of us are fully aware that there will be no sex rewards happening."

I'm pretty sure that random female co-workers can't actually coerce you into doing anything that you don't want to do. More likely, they're just better at persuading you to do something, and this could be attributed to women having better-developed social skills (without having to hypothesize some kind of "female approval" dynamic).

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#243

Post by cbsmith » Sat, Nov 03, 2012, 12:07 AM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #113

I'll make a controversial observation, but it's worthy of discussion. If you're a woman of average or better looks, you have one under-spoken superpower. Namely, how you interact with other men will have a huge effect on their social status. I'm not talking about overt flirtation (don't do it) or office relationships (avoid, avoid, avoid). I'm talking about more subtle stuff, like who a woman smiles at, who she initi…

> If you're a woman of average or better looks, you have one under-spoken superpower. Namely, how you interact with other men will have a huge effect on their social status.

Hmm... I would say in general this is true of attractiveness of average or better than average regardless, particularly if you allow for broader definitions of "attractive", and once you factor in sexual orientation.... and even when sex isn't an issue, there's all kinds of stuff that people do that works the same way. Watch a middle-aged balding male salesman work their magic sometime... even when dealing with a heterosexual, middle-aged male customer.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#244

Post by cbsmith » Sat, Nov 03, 2012, 12:10 AM UTC

papsosouid wrote: post #204

eliza1wright wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your theory hinges on the idea that most, if not all, of the players in this scenario are single. I work in a start-up environment with a bunch of men, but most of them are married or in a committed relationship. For what it's worth, I'm engaged. The whole "mysterious feminine influence" thing that you're talking about tends to disappear when people don't see you as a potential romantic/flirting partner. I th…

>I think your theory hinges on the idea that most, if not all, of the players in this scenario are single Not at all. In fact, he was quite clear that this has nothing to do with flirting or relationships in any way. It is simply that female approval is a huge factor in social status. Men instinctively view other men as more powerful, more competent, and respect them more if a women asks him a question instead of ask…

> It is simply that female approval is a huge factor in social status.

Oh, I think male approval is a huge factor in social status too. Indeed, I hear a lot of complaints from women in tech that seem based on that premis... ;-)

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#245

Post by demosthenes » Sat, Nov 03, 2012, 12:25 AM UTC

papsosouid wrote: post #208

atomical wrote: post #4

"This is a bit of a delicate topic. Quite often I am the only female person in the team and have to be careful not to take advantage of the perks that come with it. Guys are fascinated and scared by girls who roll up their sleeves and take on a job that society labels as “men’s work”. If you’ve ever drilled a hole, skinned a rabbit, or changed a tyre you know what I mean. As I mentioned earlier, guys will definitely…

>Never experienced this Privilege blindness doesn't just apply to straight white men. The relationship status of the people has nothing to do with it. Men are instinctively predisposed to helping women. Women can and do take advantage of this, and generally don't recognize or acknowledge that they are doing so. You don't see it, because you've lived it your entire life and it is normal. How many times has a woman put…

This is why women often wonder why the world has become less 'nice' as they grow older.

In fact, the world hasn't changed. It's just that the extra consideration they got because of their looks goes away as they grow old.

In contrast men often spend their early years not being taken very seriously. They often have to fight to get noticed.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#246

Post by snogglethorpe » Sat, Nov 03, 2012, 12:40 AM UTC

therandomguy wrote: post #231

eliza1wright wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your theory hinges on the idea that most, if not all, of the players in this scenario are single. I work in a start-up environment with a bunch of men, but most of them are married or in a committed relationship. For what it's worth, I'm engaged. The whole "mysterious feminine influence" thing that you're talking about tends to disappear when people don't see you as a potential romantic/flirting partner. I th…

Does getting married flip a biological switch that changes the male-female attraction? No. You might choose not to act on it, but body language, signalling etc. still remains.

Yup. Marriage status may tweak the details of things like flirting, but certainly doesn't stop it in many cases. Some people even seem to flirt more after getting married, maybe because it feels safer (there's an obvious boundary).

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#247

Post by greenyoda » Sat, Nov 03, 2012, 12:49 AM UTC

coroxout wrote: post #196

michaelochurch wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(a) In your hypothetical example, everyone seems to be heterosexual. I assure you reality doesn't fully match your theory. I'm talking about social status and "coolness" which are not identical to sexual "market value". In fact, I think it's a bad idea for women to exploit any sexual "assets", because a woman who is visibly trying to do so won't be taken seriously. I'm talking about a more general-purpose social asse…

I think your hypothetical attractive 23y/o woman who goes into the office of a middle-aged manager who barely knows who she is and comes out with a better job will be very much rumoured to have "exploited" her "sexual 'assets'", whether she has or not, and that in itself is dangerous for her social status. I'm also not totally sure that youth is such a negative for a man's social status in the workplace. I can think…

There are actually some pretty old rock stars out there, like Mick Jagger.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#248

Post by illuminate » Sat, Nov 03, 2012, 2:13 AM UTC

jrogers65 wrote: post #202

illuminate wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I am walking on eggshells right now for I can not express myself freely in a forum like this without suffering from social manipulation (downvoting, hellbanning)" That's certainly a good sign that social sanctions for sexism, racism, etc work. People ~should~ think before they speak, much more than they do in most sites and blogs.

I apologise if I'm misinterpreting but did you just insinuate that I'm holding back racist comments?

Sexist comments? I have no idea what sort of comments you're self-censoring, but people should certainly think before they speak more often, I don't see that as a negative.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#249

Post by orangecat » Sat, Nov 03, 2012, 3:59 AM UTC

rmc wrote: post #142

michaelochurch wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(a) In your hypothetical example, everyone seems to be heterosexual. I assure you reality doesn't fully match your theory. I'm talking about social status and "coolness" which are not identical to sexual "market value". In fact, I think it's a bad idea for women to exploit any sexual "assets", because a woman who is visibly trying to do so won't be taken seriously. I'm talking about a more general-purpose social asse…

Men in that age range have low social status (theirs starts out very low, but increases into the 40s and 50s) while women at that age have high social status (and it declines with age). If I'm parsing this right, you're saying women's social status is mostly based on looks (you say it's better around then) and less so on (cay) career, whereas men's social status is less based on looks, and more on career. You're prob…

If I'm parsing this right, you're saying women's social status is mostly based on looks (you say it's better around then) and less so on (cay) career, whereas men's social status is less based on looks, and more on career.

Exactly.

I'm just a principled person, and want to fight this!

You're fighting against millions of years of evolution. Speeches aren't going to do it, very advanced biotech might.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#250

Post by orangecat » Sat, Nov 03, 2012, 4:08 AM UTC

timje wrote: post #177

jrogers65 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the point the guy is trying to make is that there is nothing sexist about this. If I saw a new guy at work with a beard, jumbo sized cup of coffee, glasses sitting in front of a dual monitor setup, I would assume that he is a programmer. Does that make me sexist against men? Or prejudiced against people with beards or coffee drinkers? There's an old saying which appears to have been lost somewhere along…

I disagree, I think this is sexist -> just as if I knew that I lived in an area where a certain race commits more crime, it would be racist of me to cross the street if I saw a person of that race coming. If you assume a woman in your office is a secretary or a designer rather than a coder, that is a sexist assumption regardless of your fine knowledge of statistics.

just as if I knew that I lived in an area where a certain race commits more crime, it would be racist of me to cross the street if I saw a person of that race coming

Suppose through a sequence of unfortunate events you find yourself needing to walk through a bad section of town. You have your choice of two roads. Down one road you see a group of 5 young men of a race that commits crimes significantly higher than average. Down the other road there's a group of 5 middle-aged women of a race that commits crimes less than average. Is it acceptable to be racist, sexist, and ageist in this scenario?