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Building a new Flash

bill.newgrounds.com

201–210 of 247 posts

Re: Building a new Flash

#201
post #68

Every so often over the past 15 years I've had this exact thought, "The world needs something which is exactly like flash. Not kind of like flash, exactly like flash." A whole generation of people learned how to create art, games, music, animations, using flash, and the same kind of tool hasn't existed since then. I think Minecraft and Roblox replaced flash for the new generations.

> I think Minecraft and Roblox replaced flash for the new generations.

I think this is the biggest shift. Minecraft starting out as a .jar file allowed for reverse engineering and modding support became a huge part of its "culture". Coupled with artists focusing on spritesheets, you got to have that same Newgrounds online underground scene but for the next generation of kids.

Roblox is takes a similar place now that Minecraft is ~15 years old and all "grown up". Maybe once Roblox hits that similar fate this new Flash will be ready to fill its shoes.

Re: Building a new Flash

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flash was great. Is there anything Flash could produce that wouldn't render these days with SVG + CSS + JS? I remember trying to produce a Flash renderer in C# when we wrote DudeFactory to render out the characters after you used the Flash app to put all their clothes and accessories on. I think we cheated in the end and pre-rendered large PNGs of them all and used .NET to just layer them all with instructions sent f…

SVG + CSS + JS was hailed as the Flash-killer. But authoring tools never materialized. The tech stack can render the same things, but the process of creating anything beyond a static image in SVG is night and day compared to making the same thing in Flash

I think Rive[0] is quite competitive with what was possible back then in covering the full authoring stack.

[0]: https://rive.app

Re: Building a new Flash

#203
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried Rive? It seems to have a lot of potential for game development.

It's a UI authoring toolkit, you could do entire games in it I suppose, but you'd be fighting against it, rather than being helped by it. Better to go the route of doing Spine2D animations then leverage a real game engine like Godot or Unity and load the animations there. But then you're essentially back to "traditional game development" which is very different from what you could do with Macromedia's Flash back in t…

> but you'd be fighting against it, rather than being helped by it

I think this was also true of doing game development in Flash. Some people here might be looking back at Flash with rose-tinted nostalgia glasses.

Re: Building a new Flash

#204
post #163

I never developed with Flash but my understanding is that "modern web" can do everything Flash was used for. So my understanding is that most useful thing is probably the .fla importer. Wouldn't it make sense to focus on authoring-tooling (animator+developer coop) and the importer but "export" to standard web tech?

Often in these threads people say that thing does exist (Adobe Animate) and it's all fine, prblmslvd. Rarely are those people who themselves used Flash extensively (although some probably exist). There's something missing though, something went wrong in the transition from Flash to Animate.

Part of the beauty of working with Flash, at least as a newcomer or someone who leaned more towards graphics/animation than code, came down to a couple of main points:

- Code was *inside* MovieClips (in Flash [almost] everything was a MovieClip, basically a timeline of frames). Code was attached to frames. When the playhead entered the frame, the script would run. Some of us who started as designers later leaned heavily into the code, but even those who were more comfortable sticking to the visual side of things would end up with a little grab bag full of scripts/snippets that they could just copy/paste into a frame and tweak without getting too bogged down with code. Even at a very simple level (if somethingsomething jump to frame 20, else loop back to frame one) this added a dimension of control and interactivity. Crucially, it was implemented well and very simple to understand.

- Everything was nested. MovieClips within MovieClips. Timelines within timelines. Simple behaviours could be stacked up and lead to natural-feeling complexity just due to this nesting.

Of course these things can be implemented today too, and other tools have and do implement versions of them. But there are often just 1 or 2 levels of abstraction too much, enough to put off some kinds of minds, or people at certain levels of experience. The thing about the Flash experience was that it all felt so fluid and intuitive. Direct. Learning it was fun.

Animate (as far as I remember) did keep those paradigms I mentioned. The timelines were still there, the drawing/animation tools too. But something somehow goes wrong in the translation to modern web tech. If it didn't, people would have just carried on using Flash, outputting JS/HTML instead of SWFs and nobody would have noticed.

A lot of the above is testament to Macromedia and linked to their other software, Director (similar to Flash but aimed more at desktop and 'interactive CDs'). They made software that was a joy to use. To give them their dues, Adobe pushed it further. Also their market dominance meant if you wanted to get into this web stuff and make cool things, Flash was *the* (only, really) way to do it. Which makes me think it may have been a time and place thing, which we won't get back. The modern web and range of options maybe makes it too diffuse, harder for something new to catch on. I hope I'm wrong.

As others have said here though, maybe stuff like MineCraft and Roblox are filling a similar conceptual gap for different generations and I'm just old and nostalgic.

Re: Building a new Flash

#205
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those alternatives fail at debugging, because to this day browser teams don't consider 2D and 3D debugging tools something worthwhile having on developer tooling. So in some cases you need a native build to try to replicate browser issues, and then being able to plug into RenderDoc, Instruments, PIX,.... Flash had the tools.

Safari's devtools has a visual debugger. I remember using it, seeing all the CanvasRenderingContext2D calls that affected the canvas listed, and scrubbing left and right through time to see how a frame was built up.

Thanks for the heads up, at least that is something.

Re: Building a new Flash

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Animation studios. I know for a fact that Teen Titans was animated in Flash/Animate for its entire life, for instance; that’s directly from a former co-worker who was the animation director there. Lots of small productions, too. Animate is a lot cheaper than Toon Boom Harmony so tons of hobbyists use it. The only difference between Animate and Flash is that SWF export got dropped eventually. And a haphazard smatterin…

OK, my mistake on .fla vs. .swf ... so the story is that Flash basically disappeared from the web, but evolved into a tool to do more general/extensive animation (Animate) that continues to be used today even though the output is (essentially) never .swf files? is that more or less correct?

Somewhat.

Flash started life as a general animation tool with a highly-compressible vector output format and a browser plugin to play them. And maybe some basic interactivity, I never touched it until version 4, when it definitely had pretty rich interactive capabilities even though you had to program it all via repeatedly hitting a dropdown menu with all the commands in it. 5 was a big improvement on that front with freeform textboxes instead.

Flash kept being used for animation while also being used for an increasingly large amount of interactive stuff on the web and desktop. Adobe bought Macromedia pretty much entirely to get it and started trying to build a write-once, run-anywhere programming environment out of it. Like Electron, with all its faults of being a resource hog with the added bonus of regular security holes that only Adobe could fix at a snail's pace.

Apple decided not to let the SWF player onto the iPhone's app store, officially citing the resource hog and security hole problems. People stopped using Flash to make interactive experiences. YouTube stopped delivering video as a Flash player streaming Flash's streaming video format. People kept on using it to animate.

Some time after this Adobe renamed Flash to Animate. People kept on using it to animate. I didn't, I'd quit animating by then.

Some time after that Adobe removed the ability to export SWF files. People kept on using it to animate.

And some time after that Adobe said "fuck it we're done with this thing, we've barely been adding any new features for a while, we're gonna stop supporting it and turn off the auth servers". People who were still using it to animate screamed. Loudly. And Adobe turned around within a day and said "uh okay well I guess we'll, uh, keep the auth servers running and, uh, maintain a skeleton team to fix bugs for a while".

One month after that, some dude made a post on Newgrounds - one of the major online centers for Flash stuff, both during the 2000's boom and the modern day - about his clone of the Flash editor, that he claims is capable of reading Flash source files. And here we are.

tl;dr: pretty much yes except it was always an animation tool from the very first days

Re: Building a new Flash

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, maybe, but I think if it were FOSS'd back in ~2005, then these security issues could be addressed by a larger set of eyes, including the browser-makers themselves. If this hypothetical universe happened, I think we'd have had something akin to WASM much earlier. Flash already had its own bytecode and VM, and even had something roughly like Emscripten [1] to compile existing C++ code to Flash. [1] https://en.wik…

ESR's "many eyes" quote in his "Linus's Law" is unmitigated bullshit. And Linux Torvalds should not be blamed for it, since it wasn't his law, ESR just named it after him to get attention. Hardly anyone actually reads code, and the few people actually qualified to find bugs by reading huge piles of buggy code dumped into the public domain when a company abandons it have much more important things to do with their tim…

I think it is still more likely that a project can be improved if everyone has access to the source code vs not having access to any source code. Are there counterexamples to that?

Re: Building a new Flash

#208
I apologize, I have spent all of about one minute considering this—but I would think Flash for 2026 might simply be a wrapper for HTML5, Canvas. Likely there is already a Javascript library out there that closely fits the bill.

Re: Building a new Flash

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flash was great. Is there anything Flash could produce that wouldn't render these days with SVG + CSS + JS? I remember trying to produce a Flash renderer in C# when we wrote DudeFactory to render out the characters after you used the Flash app to put all their clothes and accessories on. I think we cheated in the end and pre-rendered large PNGs of them all and used .NET to just layer them all with instructions sent f…

SVG + CSS + JS was hailed as the Flash-killer. But authoring tools never materialized. The tech stack can render the same things, but the process of creating anything beyond a static image in SVG is night and day compared to making the same thing in Flash

Flash should have transitioned into an authoring tool for SVG + CSS + JS but it just took a knee because so many people hated flash for all of its warts by the time SVG and Canvas moved vector graphics rendering to the browser. Flash was a real pain the ass for most web users and Web 2.0 technologies did kill it.

Re: Building a new Flash

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were zero open-source options at the time. Flash/Animate was the only digital ink-n-paint solution that was even vaguely affordable to the hobbyist or small studio for many years. Most studio-quality 2D programs were proprietary solutions developed in big studios like Disney. People started using Flash for professional work around 1995 . "Open source" barely existed as a concept then, Wikipedia tells me the nam…

> "Open source" barely existed as a concept then, I was introduced to "free software" and the GPL in 1986, as a PhD student at the European Molecular Biology Lab (Heidelberg). Your historical revisionism doesn't sit well. Yes, "open source" came later because some people didn't like the specifics of the GPL and wanted a term that could describe "source available" software under a variety of license. But by 1998, I'd…

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