Earlier quoted context omitted.
...evaluation of performance based on the performance of a different group. I'm confused - what group of people should we be measuring, if not the students exiting the education system? ...there were a number of interesting topics that we had no time to cover because it was more important to teach to the test. Again, I stand by my claim that your problem is not with standardized tests, but with the goals of the schoo…
> Again, I stand by my claim that your problem is not with standardized tests, but with the goals of the school system. You really only care about those standardized tests, don't you? Any other point of interest just sort of gets ignored.
North Carolina teacher's resignation letter
291–300 of 314 posts
Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter
#292Earlier quoted context omitted.
Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests. Standardized tests aren't the bane of thinking and learning. Drilling children over and over with questions identical to those on some test is the bane of thinking and learning. The United States has had standardized tests at least since I was a child (I took standa…
AP Calculus isn't a good example of the "teach to the test" problem. Most elementary/middle and even high school tests aren't nearly as good as AP tests, and most subjects aren't best taught through rote - the best way to learn US history is NOT to be quizzed repeatedly on which year the Missouri Compromise was passed or how many men died at Sharpsburg. The problem that "teach to the test" introduces is that students…
As far as I know, there aren't any subjects that are best taught through rote. (The confusion between rote learning and practicing skills is a pet peeve of mine.) Learning and testing don't need to resemble each other, not at all, not any more than a physical exam at the doctor's office needs to include a balanced meal, eight hours of sleep, and some light exercise. I think I established that pretty well in my comment: the way I was taught calculus was very different from how I was tested. I was taught calculus through lecture, demonstration, and practice, using applications to motive a new concept, covering the concept intuitively before learning the mechanics, and finally learning and practicing the relevant computational skills. My ex was the one who was taught according to the philosophy that learning should consist of mimicking the test over and over again.
Most elementary/middle and even high school tests aren't nearly as good as AP tests.... Now AP tests do (at least partially) solve for this with their free response and short answer sections, but Standards of Learning (or other state tests) may not.
In other words, standardized tests are capable of reflecting and encouraging progressive teaching ideals OR regressive fact-regurgitation models of learning. I have no doubt at all that poor tests can be written, have been used in the past, and are currently in use in some places. Tests can't help but reflect the beliefs and competence of the people who write them, but that applies to everything else in education. Nothing is immune to being screwed up by individual or institutional incompetence. If you assume competent, progressive teachers and incompetent, benighted test-writers, it's easy to conclude that tests will drag down educational standards. That isn't fair, though. There's no reason to assume that the test designers are any less enlightened and competent than the teachers manning the classrooms.
in the real world (or in college), I'm less likely to have to pick WW2 generals out of a lineup and more like to need to come up with a few paragraphs on what caused it or how it was won or something
I have to disagree with you there. That NEVER happens in the real world. In real life, you most commonly draw on historical knowledge to generate context for things you read or hear. You often have to rely on little factoids such as names and dates to generate connections between what you're reading and what you already know, because you might be hearing something from somebody who doesn't know the context themselves. (Or you might be reading something by a political pundit who is being selective with the facts.) Knowing dates is highly underrated. In a classroom, you learn that dates are the most sterile and inert form of historical knowledge. That may be true for academics or for students, but for laypeople applying a casual knowledge of history in the real world, dates come in really handy. They're the Kevin Bacon of historical connections.
Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter
#293Earlier quoted context omitted.
In science, no metric is better than a bad misleading metric, definitely.
It's not science if there's no metric. If your hypothesis can't be falsified there's no scientific method. I'm not sure what you're advocating, but it seems to be wish-based education.
That would explain why you'd cling to cargo-cult science rather than admit that the current use of standardized testing is not scientific in any way.
Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter
#294Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think living a good life and doing something that benefits other people (aka earning money) is a good idea. If somebody disagrees, he can of course take his kids and go live under the bridge and open his school there. Let's see where we'd have more applicants - in a school that teaches kids how to be successful or in a school under a bridge that teaches them money is nothing, you can subsist on garbage and live in…
That's still indoctrination. I'm not sure why that's hard to understand. You can make all the assertions you like; you're still indoctrinating a particular value system.
Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter
#295Earlier quoted context omitted.
Great! Then do it. Tell me the correct metric for measuring software developers. We'll use it to hire and fire them, to decide their pay, to compare divisions of a company, and so on. Do that successfully, and I'll happily give you a good metric for teachers.
Where do you work that you aren't graded on a metric? The places I have worked have all emphasized goal-based metrics. The software developer lays out what they think their responsibilities should be and how they'll be measured on them. The manager then reviews the list with the developer and confirms the responsibilities and the measurements. The developer is then later graded upon his or her ability to meet the pre…
You argue in one place that scientific metrics are the only way to evaluate educators. And then here you are arguing that managerial judgment is a serious metric. Even though it's entirely non-numeric, personal, unstandardized, unrepeatable, and unreliable.
The same thing was used for teachers: it's called the judgment of their employers. If you're happy with that, then there's no particular need for all the NCLB standardized testing.
Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter
#296Earlier quoted context omitted.
Test are a consequence of a very real problem of evaluating teachers. Since neither parents nor children have in most public schools any choice over the school and teachers in it, regular consumer-driven quality controls that work on most markets are absent. However, quality problem is still real and existing - there are, obviously, good schools and bad schools, good teachers and bad teachers. Assume you are a well-i…
While I appreciate that you have decided to test the teachers, and that you have unions which come in the way of it, I am greatly amused by the ill conceived plan to achieve your goal. Its remarkable really. Years, decades of seeing kids die to suicide and cram pressure and this is what you choose. So that you can test your teachers? Anyway, your test doesn't test teachers, it tests students. And then you assume it i…
>> Years, decades of seeing kids die to suicide
Oh come on. You could at least wait couple of lines before you drop "you are a child killer" bomb. This is complete bullshit. There are very unfortunate cases of child suicide. It has nothing to do with existence and merit of evaluation system whatsoever and assigning to it responsibility for dying kids is a demagogy at its purest.
>>> And then you assume it is a good proxy for teachers.
Again, I don't assume anything - I say this criteria is inevitable, since the job of the teachers is to educate the children, and well-educated child is considered teacher's success, while poorly educated one is considered a failure. Since we don't have a way to test capability of teaches by supplying them with test kids to be taught in lab conditions - we have to test the actual kids to sample their level of education. It's not a choice, it's a logical consequence of current system of assumptions. It's as much choice as for a man jumping from a building it is a choice to hit the pavement.
>>> Your older education system did a great job.
It did great job for some and terrible job for others. It does the same now, only much more expensively. That is another reason why government is so eager to introduce testing - the costs are raising massively, the results aren't improving, and in some places are actually nothing short of disastrous - with schools releasing people that are completely illiterate. Every school complains it's underfunded but more funds do not seem to produce better outcomes. The budgets have limits, so it is no wonder that whoever distributes those budgets wants to see some metrics about how things are going instead of blindly throwing money in an hoping for the best. If something gets startups killed is exactly throwing money out without any way to measure if something was achieved or not.
Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter
#297Earlier quoted context omitted.
Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests. Standardized tests aren't the bane of thinking and learning. Drilling children over and over with questions identical to those on some test is the bane of thinking and learning. The United States has had standardized tests at least since I was a child (I took standa…
You are saying that if you have better teachers who know how to teach, then standardized testing doesn't matter - it doesn't have to be about drills. That's essentially waving a magic wand. You are super privileging teacher training as some sort of silver bullet solution, but missing the larger system that works actively against the outcome. You are undervaluing the various pressures which get applied to education, o…
Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter
#298Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's still indoctrination. I'm not sure why that's hard to understand. You can make all the assertions you like; you're still indoctrinating a particular value system.
OK, it's indoctrination. Teaching kids to use toilet, wipe their butts, wash their hands and not put a fork into an electrical outlet is an indoctrination too. So what?
Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter
#299Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are saying that if you have better teachers who know how to teach, then standardized testing doesn't matter - it doesn't have to be about drills. That's essentially waving a magic wand. You are super privileging teacher training as some sort of silver bullet solution, but missing the larger system that works actively against the outcome. You are undervaluing the various pressures which get applied to education, o…
All I can say is that we've had standardized tests in the U.S. my entire life, and none of that has happened. I just looked up when the SAT was introduced: 1926. Over eighty years ago! It hasn't ruined American high school education. (If that requires magic, then magic is real.) Of course standardized tests can be misused. If we make standardized tests into tests of rote regurgitated knowledge, if we design tests tha…
Do note, as far as standardized tests go - the SATs were fun - I personally loved taking them and practicing them. They weren't compulsory either. And if you didn't take them, well you weren't going to be a loser in life. There were other things you could do.
Please understand, that without NCLB you could have all those "IFs". With NCLB the dynamic has changed very drastically, and those conditional flags are set.
SATs are very different from NCLB mandated tests to measure student performance mate. They are compulsory and everyone gets graded. (Remember the last time someone ran an experiment where they gave some kids fake good grades and some kids fake bad grades?)
Test structure and test making knowledge isn't static either - it evolves. One of the first thing it starts becoming aware of is people gaming the system - cheating, memmorizing and so on. It tries to adapt to this by making the test more complex or variable. But then to standardize it has to create a (publicly available) rubric for graders to follow. So the process just renews.
You've started down an evolutionary path. Your tests are moving down a particular road. What you see today isn't what you are going to have.
Further I don't need colleges to have a single do-or-die test. - I just need parents to start privileging the test. IT doesn't matter what colleges do unless they work actively against the test. All that matters is that parents start pushing their kids to do well in it. This is one of the engines of the self fulfilling prophecy.
Standardized tests aren't being misused. They are achieving the kind of goals they usually achieve.
Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter
#300Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're going to have to point out the contract with my signature on it where I agreed to that. My attorney is gonna hear about it...
It's not a legal requirement. It's a moral requirement. It's your country, your state, your city. It's your government. You are legally allowed to shirk some of your duties, although not all of them, but that doesn't make you less of a shirker.. Parenting is similar: there are a lot of ways to be a shitty parent that don't rise to the legal level of neglect.
You are making subjective judgments. This is fine. But don't confuse your opinions on "fairness" with an objective reality.