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North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

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Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does being part of an elite come into play when it comes to parents wanting their children educated in the manner of their choosing?

Because that privilege costs a ton of money that only the upper middle class and the elite can comfortably afford? That said, i agree with imbracio: parents' primary responsibility is to ensure their kids get a good education, rather than worrying about fixing a system that is unfit able in its current state.

The best solution to this unfairness is to give everyone a choice in which school their children attend, by instituting publicly-funded vouchers for every student.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#182
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do have another metric: The teachers', who spend 5 days a week with the kids, knowledge. They have a dataset infinitely deeper and more multi-dimensional than a standardized test can give. Of course, it doesn't lend itself well to making graphs, but that's the nature of complex data.

The subjective opinions of a teacher are not a metric, they are merely a noisy data set. They are also nearly worthless scientifically - they are incomparable (how do you compare the opinion of teacher A to that of teacher B) and non-reproducible (how can one repeat an observation).

All true, of course. But numerically accurate data on a proxy quantity that you don't care about are not necessarily inferior to numerically inaccurate data on the quantity you care about. Both pose challenges to interpretation. It's easy to be seduced by clear numbers and worry less about what the numbers mean. We can argue about which fields count as "science", but many fields try to learn from non-reproducible data.

(And I say this having spent my career in the physical sciences. There's too much noise induced by people who present statistically solid analyses of numbers whose connection to the core questions is much more tenuous...)

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have kids, do you really want them to be educated in fill-in-the-bubble hell? Because that is how school is these days, teachers don't teach, they do test prep and then administer those tests, and the testing companies have gotten rich in basically a corrupt cycle. Read the linked article for crying out loud. Also, NCLB passed with bipartisan support at the beginning of Bush's term, it wasn't his fault, but it…

This is crazy. If you have another metric for student performance other than test scores, just say it.

Classroom work? Like it used to be when we were kids. You went to school, and learned the material in class, and the teacher had a grasp on where everyone in the class. You did homework, and took tests prepared by your teacher. Now teachers in some states have to spend 30 min a day just teaching HOW TO TAKE A STANDARDIZED TEST! "here you go little johnney, fill in the bubble the whole way"

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#184
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are large portions of the United States where parents without any training or knowledge on teaching have very strong opinions on what should or should not be said in the classroom. Getting rid of tenure and academic freedom will, in some areas, lead to ignorant people making important educational decisions. It's a very slippery slope, denying some people input into "important educational decisions", or any de…

I have strong opinions on whether or not the U.S. should go to war with country A. My opinion counts as far as voting goes. I have opinions on tactics involved in fighting a battle. My opinion counts for very little because I am wholly ignorant about fighting wars. My opinion in this should count for very little. Sometimes it's best to leave implementation to the experts. Sometimes not. One should be careful about wh…

I have strong opinions about dining and auto repair (I'm neither a particularly noteworthy chef nor mechanic). Others have strong opinions about health care, hair-styling, home remodeling, child care, legal representation, or any of hundreds of other widely available services. Somehow we have a system in place that allows expert service providers to consider all of our opinions so as to provide satisfying service. It would be great if something similar existed for education.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#185
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if you aren't a fan of testing as a way to measure and improve teacher effectiveness, please find an alternative that works better. Just not having any metric at all is far worse than the imperfect tests we have. This is a gigantic assumption which you have tossed out there without any support whatsoever. You are basically making an assumption which encompasses the entire issue in question, and then just blithely…

What evidence do you have that things were better before 2001?

You're referring to a value judgement, right?

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not "anti-union," but frankly almost all of the issues he complains about are supposed to be things that the union helps with, especially professional development. It sounds like the whole system is falling over in that area, not just the district and not just the union.

Err, I read the article and I have no idea how you found this to be the most important part. I studied in India, and had a chance to study abroad as well. Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests. Perhaps in order to have some sort of proxy or measurement for what is inherently a chaotic and un-measurable s…

Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests.

Standardized tests aren't the bane of thinking and learning. Drilling children over and over with questions identical to those on some test is the bane of thinking and learning. The United States has had standardized tests at least since I was a child (I took standardized tests in elementary school almost thirty years ago) and U.S. education has continued to be progressive during that time. College admissions were very heavily influenced by standardized tests when I was in high school, but my classmates and I were not taught by rote, because our teachers did not believe rote learning was effective.

Let me give you a concrete example. My ex-girlfriend grew up in South Korea. She did very well in calculus in high school, where she learned to solve problems by rote. They were shown different kinds of problems to solve, they memorized the steps to solve them by rote, and then they practiced solving those problems. That's all they did: memorize the steps and then apply them over and over to thousands of problems. Then they were tested on exactly the same kind of problems. She got excellent grades and test scores, but she cannot tell you what a derivative or an integral are or why you would use them. I was taught entirely differently. I was taught the concept of the derivative and the integral. I was taught from pictures before I was taught with symbols. The motivation for the concepts was discussed. I don't remember if we discussed it in class, but the textbook even described some of the historical context. We often learned computations in the context of applications: a tank filling with water, a car accelerating, etc.[+]

Do you know what? Calculus was tested the same way in my school system here in the U.S. as in Korea. Each test had a bunch of problems. The more problems I solved, the higher my score. That's it! Nothing creative or touchy-feely or magical about it. Not really any different from the way my ex was tested in Korea. At the end of the course, there was a standard test administered uniformly across the nation (the Advanced Placement exam.)

American teachers routinely invoke the idea of "teaching to the test" to imply that there are bad teaching methods that lead to better test scores than good teaching methods. Basically, they threaten to teach more and more poorly the more their students are tested. The truth is that under pressure to produce good scores, teachers continue to use the techniques they believe are effective. Teachers in the U.S. are taught that rote learning is not effective, so they don't use it. Teachers who believe that rote learning is effective will use it regardless of whether their students are tested or not.

tl;dr My ex-girlfriend and I were TESTED the same way, but we were TAUGHT entirely differently, because our teachers were trained differently.

[+] Of course, it turns out that in order to learn how to do the problems, I had to actually do the problems, and to a limited extent, the more problems I did the easier they became. In the United States education system, we are taught to be horrified by this evil, poisonous art of getting better at something by practicing it, but we still do it. Teachers universally disapprove of it, but they have not figured out how to eradicate it from their classrooms. (Getting rid of testing would be a good first step, I suppose, since then we wouldn't have to worry about whether the students can actually demonstrate competence at anything; we could teach them to attain pure, perfect internal understanding untainted by any outward manifestation.)

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#187
post #77

It's fine to grumble about testing, but the debate is not about the tests. Teachers performance in the US has been terrible for many years. Partly this is because of bad management, partly because of low pay, and partly because of teacher unions preventing any action against the worst teachers and insistance on tenure tracks. The reason testing is good isn't because it is somehow super accurate. It is good because it…

The contention here, though, isn't that standardized tests are useless, it's that they're worse than useless and actively cause harm when they're required. It's a very different proposition. As for measuring performance, there are ton of ways to do it (some of which incorporate tests) without mandating standardized testing.

What specifically is the harm they are alleged to cause? Teaching to the test?

I wonder what teachers who currently "teach to the test" would teach if they had no test to teach to. I seriously doubt that they would suddenly become paragons of pedagogy, that it was somehow the existence of standardized tests was the cause of their deficient teaching.

Of course it could be argued that tests offer a shelter to such teachers; in standardized test's absence, they would be replaced by better teachers. I also think this is an unlikely scenario. The absence of standardization would result in non-uniform results, some districts might come up with good measures of teacher performance and successfully replace teachers, but I suspect most would not. Instead, the formerly "teach to the test" teachers would stay on, and that their teaching would not improve as a result of their new-found lack of accountability.

No doubt some replacement for standardized testing could be invented, but that is irrelevant if we are arguing that such tests are worse than useless. I.e. that doing nothing is better than doing these tests.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Students need to actively test their understanding by making predictions and failing, and no courses I've ever experienced attempt to do this." Shouldn't a good teacher prod students in this direction?

Yes, but they often don't. We usually think of good teachers as people who give clear explanations and keep the students interested. Attacking student misconceptions tends to confuse them, even if it improves their understanding in the end, so people are reluctant to do it.

Funny. We call that process the "scientific method," yet it is hardly applied when it comes to actually learning anything. It should be a student's goal to strike out and fail, to discover that he does not know things about the world. But this isn't the environment that is fostered in classrooms - it is compliance and memorization that is taught.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#189
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look at the recently released questions from the 2012 california math standardized tests. Looks like math, not memorization to me. Here is grade 7: http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/cstrtqmath7.pdf Here is algebra: http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/cstrtqalgebra.pdf

Looks like memorization to me. Looks like the questions are formulaic, and that students are expected to memorize both the formulas needed to answer the questions and the formula that the question itself follows. Sure, a student who actually understands the material will pass the test; but a student who does not actually understand the material can pass too, and will have an easier time doing so. If you accept the no…

I disagree that using memorized formulas to solve math problems isn't meaningful learning. But granting you that, I'd argue that a student who has memorized the formulas and can apply them to that test and get correct answers is a success story. That's better than most people, and enough of a tool to make math an asset for that person in life.

Students who conceptually get it, and those who have just "memorized" will do well on atest. The test will help identifying the students who can do neither, and the teachers who are underperforming, which is the real problem.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#190

Does anyone have any demographics for the HN community's age? I am curious how many people here have attended schools with standardized tests. If you did attend a high school with standardized tests - do you feel it negatively affected your education? How? Do you have specific examples or courses? For clarity - I am not claiming that standardized tests do/don't help. I just want to hear form recent HS grads.

I took standardized tests in high school to pass 11th and 12th grade. At best it was an annoyance. I overslept one of them (we took them all in one week, one day for each subject) and was kicked out of my home by my mother. I simply took both tests (Reading, Math) in the same day and finished with honors in both.

It taught me nothing. It was a waste of time. Why test the kids who are naturally good test-takers or who had parents who intellectually stimulated them (me, fortunately) - it strikes me as an exercise in mental masturbation.

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