Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Keep Your Identity Small

paulgraham.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 267 posts

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#111

Post by DaniFong »

gruseom wrote: post #106
DaniFong wrote: post #74

One trouble with following this line of reasoning to its limits is simply that one doesn't have an endless supply of mental energy. It is not merely easier to mark something about yourself as known and solid, and move on; it also frees cycles for other things. One simply can't go about life questioning every action in terms of its relationship to values which you are supposed to figure out. It's too hard. So, perhaps…

I don't see how it consumes mental energy to be less judgmental and make fewer identifications. If anything, the opposite is the case. Carrying a heavy identity takes a lot of energy: you have to defend yourself against anyone criticizing any piece of it. As for "following this line of reasoning to its limits", there are very few people who have. I came to the conclusion it was better not to try, as such; you're most…

Well, certainly in the case of the devout religious, there is a firm set of rules and values to which one is supposed to adhere. It may demand effort from you, but not so much of introspection and self-examination, which is often frightening and tiring. And to avoid identification resists the following of role models, to a large extent one must walk their paths alone. Lastly, one is then impeded in finding those of like mind and affinity. We meet here not at Hacking News, but Hacker News, presumed by and for Hackers.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#112

Post by kevintwohy »

I quite liked how you finished up -- very well put.

I would say, though, that on the subject of religion-as-identity, we only permit this kind of accountability-dodging when it involves a monotheism. When someone tries to defend a shoddy point by saying 'it's so because I know it,' we call them a fool. We only allow this defense in the name of 'faith.'

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#114

Post by yters »

adsyoung wrote: post #41
BigZaphod wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like Wikipedia. :)

Well yes, except that wikipedia doesn't lead to new and interesting conclusions as far as I'm aware. It does a good job of converging on good truthiness for a lot of things but avoids the harder stuff for which these types of problems make impossible to deal with.

I've considered the idea too. Perhaps a Wikipedia based on prolog. The main problem is that the expert system would be too tedious for most to fill out. There needs to be some kind of happy medium between rigor and usability. That middle point hasn't occurred to me yet.

Perhaps just some kind of reference system, so when an old debate reemerges, people can just refer to the online record until new ground is broken. The problem in this case is succinct yet meaningful summaries of the debate.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#115

Post by GHFigs »

astine wrote: post #78

PGs thesis seems to boil down to this: If you believe in something strongly enough, it will cause you to want to defend it and you may compromise your rationality and civility as a result. For which reason we should believe in as little as possible and be as non-committal in our beliefs. I'm not sure that this is an ethically tenable position: shallowness extolled as a virtue. It's true, people who don't believe in a…

You can believe in or participate in something without having it form a significant part of your identity. Usually we say something like that is a "preference" or "opinion", but the difference in name is only a an indicator that it is less coupled to our identity than that it is a distinctly different kind of thing.

It's true, people who don't believe in anything don't argue about religion and politics, they fight over fashion and celebrities.

This is an excessive generalization, and a false dichotomy. The people who argue over fashion or celebrity are those who have incorporated it into their identity. Those subjects are distinct from religion in politics by a matter of degree, not category.

A typical person responds very differently to having their religion criticized than they do having their favorite flavor of ice cream criticized, even though objectively speaking they are both just preferences among a wide number of choices. It isn't even necessarily true that they've given more thought to the former than the latter, only that they identify with that preference much more closely--and criticism of it feels that much more like criticism of the individual.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#116

Post by GHFigs »

pg wrote: post #60
immad wrote: post #8

I think I concur that in educated discussions Identity does not help, but I have been thinking through the importance of identity for a while. I think in many situations identity gives you strength. I have an identity within Y Combinator, with my family, with people that went to my University, in the countries I have lived in etc. These fragments of my identity all give me strength, it means I would help people out t…

You're right. That's why I was careful to qualify it with "all other things being equal." In general identity gives you strength while making you stupid. This can sometimes be a good trade, especially in stressful situations. E.g. I think this is one reason people in the US are so much more religious than they were when I was a kid. People who 30 years ago might have been skeptical of preachers are now thinking that…

In general identity gives you strength while making you stupid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer in a nutshell.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#117

Post by yters »

DaniFong wrote: post #72
silentbicycle wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhists aren't immune to squabbling about ideological differences, either, of course. (But meditation helps.)

Buddhist practitioners are human too, of course, but a central practice in Buddhism is to dissolve and refute concrete belief in a persistent self and consciousness.

Try breaking up an inner city gang fight by telling them to let their concrete beliefs dissolve in persistent self and consciousness.

My point is that this zen buddhism stuff is mainly the luxury of the elite few. Others have to grapple with the practicalities of daily survival, group membership, and hope for the future. Out of such things come the hard forged religious and political systems.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#118

Post by Andys »

pg wrote: post #60
immad wrote: post #8

I think I concur that in educated discussions Identity does not help, but I have been thinking through the importance of identity for a while. I think in many situations identity gives you strength. I have an identity within Y Combinator, with my family, with people that went to my University, in the countries I have lived in etc. These fragments of my identity all give me strength, it means I would help people out t…

You're right. That's why I was careful to qualify it with "all other things being equal." In general identity gives you strength while making you stupid. This can sometimes be a good trade, especially in stressful situations. E.g. I think this is one reason people in the US are so much more religious than they were when I was a kid. People who 30 years ago might have been skeptical of preachers are now thinking that…

Indeed, how do you bring up your own kids to have a small identity?

I get the feeling that children growing into adults have an innate need to find identity, and if you have an identity vacuum at home they'll find it elsewhere.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#119

Post by yters »

psyklic wrote: post #53

This confluence of religion and politics was especially prominent in the recent gay marriage debate. Really, the entire issue revolves around the word "marriage" having a dual meaning in a religious sense and a (government) civil contract sense. When the government "redefines" civil marriage (e.g. with the inclusion of interracial couples), religious organizations can still retain their own definitions of marriage. I…

At the popular level, yes. But there are other concerns, like the practical basis of marriage rights for procreation and that it is contrary to the American experiment to mandate gay marriage for all states.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#120

Post by yters »

c00p3r wrote: post #90

What is common in religion and politics - the possibility to blame someone else for your own condition. And, as you said, everyone is an expert!

That exists in science and pretty much everything else too. For example, look at how obesity has been labelled an "epidemic," implying it is a disease and not something people have control over.
Post reply on HN