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North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

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Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are proposing that the purpose of education is indoctrination into value system X, and propose that a successful system will indoctrinate more people? Your goal is now vaguely stated. But how do I actually count the # of people concerned with individual rights/positive outlook/etc?

Yes, the purpose of all education is indoctrination to a set of ideas. Home schooling is also an exercise in indoctrination to a set of ideas. Critical thinking is an idea, egalitarianism is an idea, individuality is an idea, problem solving is an idea. Education is a way of ensuring a more advanced and productive society through imparting certain knowledge and ideas to its children. The best metric for measuring the…

Crime rate is a decent metric, but I feel it's too indirect to be useful. If they do change, there are a lot of possibilities that could explain it: police aren't enforcing silly laws, that laws are reasonably legislated, police have been corrupted by bribery, and so on.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#232
post #9

TL;DR: The writer, a math teacher, is quitting (edit: his) job because of increased bureaucracy and standardized tests. Mostly, it seems, standardized tests. The problem is, math is the subject which is BEST served by standardized tests. There is really no fuzzy aspect to K-12 math: answers are right or wrong. And there are of course many benefits to standardized testing like teacher and school evaluation, providing…

Tests are a disaster for math education: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf The very essense of math is killed by tests (true for history/literature/physics etc as well).

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#233
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article wasn't about him getting fired in Oregon, it was a lengthy rant about him quitting in North Carolina. The reason you chose instead to focus your lengthy comment on that one throwaway line is because it reinforces your preexisting view that unions are the main problem with education, even though this article is mainly about some of the other problems.

I'm not "anti-union," but frankly almost all of the issues he complains about are supposed to be things that the union helps with, especially professional development. It sounds like the whole system is falling over in that area, not just the district and not just the union.

Sure, if North Carolina had strong unions they might be able to help more. But even unions can only do so much to influence legislation, especially today where they don't have the resources to compete against rich individuals who can dump millions of dollars into a race without batting an eye.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#234
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article wasn't about him getting fired in Oregon, it was a lengthy rant about him quitting in North Carolina. The reason you chose instead to focus your lengthy comment on that one throwaway line is because it reinforces your preexisting view that unions are the main problem with education, even though this article is mainly about some of the other problems.

I'm not "anti-union," but frankly almost all of the issues he complains about are supposed to be things that the union helps with, especially professional development. It sounds like the whole system is falling over in that area, not just the district and not just the union.

North Carolina teachers have no union.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not "anti-union," but frankly almost all of the issues he complains about are supposed to be things that the union helps with, especially professional development. It sounds like the whole system is falling over in that area, not just the district and not just the union.

Err, I read the article and I have no idea how you found this to be the most important part. I studied in India, and had a chance to study abroad as well. Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests. Perhaps in order to have some sort of proxy or measurement for what is inherently a chaotic and un-measurable s…

There is a reason why rote learning to some extent works especially in India.

There is so much competition you are likely to inevitably work very hard. So much effort that you will ultimately get it even if didn't want to.

I know this is brute force way of getting things done. But it is still far better than getting nothing done.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#236
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, I read the article and I have no idea how you found this to be the most important part. I studied in India, and had a chance to study abroad as well. Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests. Perhaps in order to have some sort of proxy or measurement for what is inherently a chaotic and un-measurable s…

Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests. Standardized tests aren't the bane of thinking and learning. Drilling children over and over with questions identical to those on some test is the bane of thinking and learning. The United States has had standardized tests at least since I was a child (I took standa…

You are saying that if you have better teachers who know how to teach, then standardized testing doesn't matter - it doesn't have to be about drills.

That's essentially waving a magic wand. You are super privileging teacher training as some sort of silver bullet solution, but missing the larger system that works actively against the outcome. You are undervaluing the various pressures which get applied to education, one important one being parent desires to see their kid succeed.

It doesn't matter if the kid understands or not. It doesn't matter if he can answer more important questions but isn't able to perfectly prove a theorem.

No amount of teacher training can stand in the face of a single determined parent who wants their kid to ace that test.

Heck a more trivial point which is still important? - teacher empowerment must come hand in hand with training, because each student is vastly different even from him or herself depending on what time of the day/month or year it is. Teachers must be able to make graded and customized judgement constantly. Tests don't allow for that.

Moving the power for measurement into the hands of the test dis-empowers teachers. The test becomes/IS all that matters here, not the education.

And Tests only roughly measure learning. They MOST strongly measure whether you could answer that particular test.

The test is all that matters.

As a result, the kind of teaching you value, becomes deprecated. Its just not economically competitive. As the original article posits. You don't need teachers to pass the test. You need drill Sergeants.

Teachers who are good at that are the ones who will come to the fore, other teachers don't matter.

You could love your subject and instill it in students. But that doesn't guarantee a good grade. Loving a subject, being involved in it, and testing well in it are different. Especially if you don't "think the test".

This is the final pressure - loving a subject or enjoying it is irrelevant. Students care even less, they know that as long as that they get the test - its all good. "I'm getting good marks In a stupid subject like chemistry, who cares?".

Do you want those people becoming your computer science engineers?

The system you are setting up is concerning, and no amount of teacher training will solve it.

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Further I think you are talking about standardized tests America had 30 or so years ago. Speaking on behalf of student body of India - we would have loved to have tests like that.

At least in America you had the option of making a life if you had some gumption even if you didn't ace those tests. You were a person as opposed to a Frankenstinian mental athlete.

Our tests were/are compulsory, for many people not in their first language, and they determined everything from your social standing to your marriage prospects. You started studying for your tenth standard exam 2 years before they started, you had no vacation and you had no spare time.

Then 2 years later you would do it for your ISC or IIT or CAT.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classroom work? Like it used to be when we were kids. You went to school, and learned the material in class, and the teacher had a grasp on where everyone in the class. You did homework, and took tests prepared by your teacher. Now teachers in some states have to spend 30 min a day just teaching HOW TO TAKE A STANDARDIZED TEST! "here you go little johnney, fill in the bubble the whole way"

What prevents the teacher from giving his class all the answers so that he doesn't have to work and doesn't get fired for his students grades being too low.

nothing really.

ITs ok, this types of train wrecks have their own logic - after a while people will cotton onto this part, and then there will be spot checks to ensure that students aren't being given the question paper.

After that they will realize that all tests should come from one standardized system, lets say Pearsons.

Then pearson will conduct tests for all 10th graders and then all high schoolers and so on.

Kids will start spending time coming up with creative ways to cheat and beat the system.

Its happened before in other countries and will happen again.

At the end of this, expect people to enter the test center after going through a metal detector and removing any metallic object.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#238
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actively identifying the most able teachers and encouraging the least effective teachers to find other employment, regardless of seniority, could do much to improve the efficiency of the public school system and free up resources to reward the best teachers better than they are rewarded now. How do you think should they do this? If you use test scores, teachers will try to "teach the test", or even encourage studen…

You cannot manage professionals by a set of numbers. (Sales might be the single exception.) Dilbert is full of tales of developers being graded on lines of code or number of bugs. You need to have human judgment involved. The problem is that the teachers' union does not trust the administrators (probably with good historical reason, but that's neither here nor there) to make those decisions using human judgment. They…

> Sales might be the single exception.

Except it's not: http://blog.fogcreek.com/why-do-we-pay-sales-commissions/

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because your responsibility is to your kids and not to some idealistic vision of what you could be doing to improve the school system as a whole.

False dichotomy. Your responsibility as a parent is to your children. Your responsibility as a citizen is to run your government effectively. Captain TLDR above is basically saying "fuck other people's kids", which is abdicating his civic responsibility.

So send your kids to private school while campaigning for better state schools.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#240
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, I read the article and I have no idea how you found this to be the most important part. I studied in India, and had a chance to study abroad as well. Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests. Perhaps in order to have some sort of proxy or measurement for what is inherently a chaotic and un-measurable s…

Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests. Standardized tests aren't the bane of thinking and learning. Drilling children over and over with questions identical to those on some test is the bane of thinking and learning. The United States has had standardized tests at least since I was a child (I took standa…

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