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IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

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Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#541

Post by xg15 »

richardfeynman wrote: post #507
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany invaded most of Europe and left much of it in rubble. You're picking a very weird, specific comparison (German vs. US cities) and leaving out the obvious comparison (German vs. Soviet or Polish cities). Also, comparing Nazi Germany, a massively powerful industrial state, with a tiny, poor territory under foreign occupation by a vastly superior power is insane.

Gaza began the war with a more powerful army than many European countries: more soldiers, more rockets, more war-fighting infrastructure. Gaza wasn't a particularly poor place before the war, certainly not by the standards of the middle east. It had mansions and average salaries that, for some professions, were higher than average salaries in Israel. It was a net food exporter.

It was also fully blockaded by Israeli (and Egyptian) forces on all sides? Israel was in full control of what was going in an out of it.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#542

Post by wayeq »

neoromantique wrote: post #307
wayeq wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If genocide were the goal this war would have lasted one day. You can't infer intent that way. Nuking Gaza isn't free, it would introduce an existential threat to Israel. They are toeing a dangerous line already, and using WMDs would align other countries against them really quickly. Putin isn't avoiding using nukes on Ukraine because he's a nice guy.

Why does israel use expensive precise munitions wherever possible rather than their stockpiles of much more deadly "dumb" ones?

maybe because they are trying to act ethically toward a murderous neighbor that is conducting asymmetric warfare and those are the best tools to accomplish that.

or, maybe because they came to the conclusion that the repercussions on the world stage of even more horrific media coming out of Gaza is too steep of a price to pay.

i don't know which, but i do know it is naive to conclude that because they COULD end the war in a day and did not, they are driven by morality and ethical concerns rather than pragmatic ones.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#543

Post by manyaoman »

suzzer99 wrote: post #214
Vasbarlog wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> problem is that both sides lie flagrantly And yet one side is committing genocide.

And one side started it by killing 1,200 civilians and kidnapping 250. Which doesn't justify genocide. But it does factor into the response when one side is governed by a death cult that has no problem letting scores of their own civilians die if it furthers their cause.

I don't think Hamas started it, but they definitely escalated it.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#544

Post by defrost »

echoangle wrote: post #536
defrost wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not clear, and unlikely in Australia. * https://mgnsw.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/map_col_high... * https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2016-09-22/world-first-s... This recent genetic based view replaces the "gut feeling" view akin to yours that was long pushed by Quadrant et al.

But surely, the different tribes in Australia also moved around and replaced each other? They might all come from the same people that came to Australia first, but that doesn’t mean they are native to the place they currently live in. If a tribe moved from southern Australia to the north and replaced another tribe, who gets the land now? And how do you settle that without some arbitrary statute of limitations?

> But surely, the different tribes in Australia also moved around and replaced each other?

Read article, chase up the papers, evidence says "no".

The Tasmanians and the Noongars (Southern most to east, southern most to west) have genetically been in place a long time and had no one to replace.

The article mentions "genetic diversity" between east, west, centre, north, south, etc - that comes from not mixing.

"But surely..." Quadrant.

> If a tribe moved from southern Australia to the north and replaced another tribe

Do you have any evidence of that?

> who gets the land now?

There's a wealth of material on Mabo, Land rights, Native title, et al that address all that - if you're generally curious it's there to read.

eg: starting with, say https://aiatsis.gov.au/explore/mabo-case

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#545

Post by xg15 »

weirdmantis69 wrote: post #475
throw310822 wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hamas was the first to cast the stone. Palestine is a country under a brutal military occupation and progressive illegal colonisation that has been going on for 80 years. Before October 7, Israel had already killed many, many more civilians in Gaza than Hamas did in Israel with that attack.

[flagged]

What are the Palestinians then?

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#546

Post by slg »

echoangle wrote: post #539
slg wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take the view of history that the ability to forcibly drive other people off their land grants the new inhabitants a valid claim to that land, then Israel's actions are only objectionable because they are happening now rather than in the history books. It's inherently a doctrine of might is right, and the Israelis are mightier than the Palestinians at this current moment in history.

Right, but at least historically, what alternative is there? You can’t really unroll thousands of years of human history and make everyone go back to where their ancestors came from (even just because people ended up mixing after colonizing other places), so you have to take some state as the correct one and then condemn every change after that (or just let everyone do whatever they want). Otherwise, how would you de…

Which is exactly why this area has been in conflict for millennia. Many different groups have valid claims to the area being their historic homeland. Dubbing one single group as "indigenous" is a refutation of all the other people's historical claims on that land and it means all the Israelis have to do is wait out this conflict until it becomes "history" and the Palestinians lose that "indigenous" label.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#547

Post by prmoustache »

richardfeynman wrote: post #503
prmoustache wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is kind of a dishonnest take. You make sure to avoid mentionning that hamas is not only a terrorist organization. It is also an administrative body which has been bringing employment and services to a significant portion of the palestinian population while they have been constantly under strict embargoes, restriction and aggressions for decades. You can't really criticize people to support the only org that pret…

You wrote: "You make sure to avoid mentionning that hamas is not only a terrorist organization. It is also an administrative body which has been bringing employment and services to a significant portion of the palestinian population while they have been constantly under strict embargoes, restriction and aggressions for decades." This sounds like: "You make sure to avoid mentioning that the Nazis are not just a genoci…

So that excuse perpetuating a much bigger crime and killing thousands of kids who never had their say. Rrrriiight.

What Israel government and IDF has been doing is an insult to the shoah victims. Any half decent jew should condemn the likoud.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#548

Post by yosamino »

km3r wrote: post #527
yosamino wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I recall some time ago an Israeli strike--they hit with a roof knocker, Hamas responded by ordering the neighbors to rush to the roof. Too slow, the house was packed with people when the bomb fell. And somehow that's Israel's fault?! I don't even understand what you are trying to tell me here. You are constructing a sourceless story that after the Israeli Army dropped a small bomb on a house ( "roof knocker" is a e…

> the Israeli Army dropped a small bomb on a house Roof knocking is using non explosive ordinance. It is, by definition, not a bomb. Attacking its use is wild, its a tactic that saves civilian lives, even if you disagree with the validity of the target. > that means you think that Hamas sent these people on the roof to let the Israeli army execute them, not even to use them as a human shield. Yes. That is what human…

I was going to write a whole different comment, but then I thought

> What if, yosamino, your knowledge of the euphemism of knocking on a roof is outdated and this km3r is right? you should probably double check so that in case they are right, you are not having a stupid argument but one backed by facts.

And then I found this hilarious quote:

> As women and children lived in the house, a Hellfire missile was initially shot at the roof as a warning.

referring to American slaughter in Mosul, but still relevant.

The more relevant description is in this article

> The US has adopted a controversial air strike technique known as "roof-knocking", which is best known for its use by Israeli forces during conflicts in Gaza.

> The tactic involves detonating a small explosive above the roof a target as a way of signalling to nearby civilians to get out of range.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/27/us-adopts-contro...

Which tracks a lot better with the descriptions of the practice I have heard from people who experienced it.

So while this is from 2016 and by that metric is 10 years old, you'd have to please show me some information about the army of the state of Israel downgrading their tactics from sending as small bomb to sending a ... what are you claiming they are dropping? a rock ?

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#549

Post by richardfeynman »

xg15 wrote: post #541
richardfeynman wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaza began the war with a more powerful army than many European countries: more soldiers, more rockets, more war-fighting infrastructure. Gaza wasn't a particularly poor place before the war, certainly not by the standards of the middle east. It had mansions and average salaries that, for some professions, were higher than average salaries in Israel. It was a net food exporter.

It was also fully blockaded by Israeli (and Egyptian) forces on all sides? Israel was in full control of what was going in an out of it.

I don't see how that's relevant to the earlier claim, but even this claim of yours is a gross overstatement.

There was a partial blockade, not a full blockade, and this partial blockade came after Palestinians launched the second intifada. Prior to the october 7 massacre, perpetrated by Hamas and gazan civilians, tens of thousands of gazans were able to travel out of gaza through egypt and israel, where many of them worked. nearly 75,000 truckloads of food and cargo went into gaza from israel in 2022. Gaza exported lots too.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#550

Post by tartoran »

km3r wrote: post #513
tartoran wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should stop using this term terror/terrorist, it's lost any meaning. If Hamas are terrorists because they're terrorizing Israeli population then so are Israelis' IDF or whatever force kills other country's population. And the list extends beyond that. To paint a resisting force/army as terrorists is just charged language to emotionally manipulate and pollute discourse. It would be more useful to put in balance wha…

Terrorism has a simple definition: using force against civilian life to further ones goals. Target a music festival with no military value: terrorism. Blow up a building because hamas has a tunnel under there: not terrorism. If the military value gained is disproportionate to the civilian cost, it is a war crime. But still not terrorism.

> Terrorism has a simple definition: using force against civilian life to further ones goals.

Not disagreeing with the definition but this is what both sides have been doing.

Look, blowing up aid workers, which is in question in this article, is also terrorism. Killing unarmed civilians, kids, etc is also terrorist. Also if you you use your definition for what Israel has been doing in the last 70-80 years it makes them terrorists as well, the word is simply meaningless at this point.

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