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Writing code is cheap now

simonwillison.net

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Re: Writing code is cheap now

#381

Post by pmontra »

tabs_or_spaces wrote: post #130

> Code has always been expensive. Producing a few hundred lines of clean, tested code takes most software developers a full day or more. Many of our engineering habits, at both the macro and micro level, are built around this core constraint. > ... > Writing good code remains significantly more expensive I think this is a bad argument. Code was expensive because you were trying to write the expensive good code in the…

The problem is to know what to write. I spent a whole day yesterday to understand what the problem was with a PDF file we were failing to process. Once I understood the cause it took one line of code to fix it and another dozen of lines for a unit test. A LLM helped me to write the code to explore several possible candidate problems but it did not find the problem by itself.

So code is both cheaper (what the LLM wrote for me much faster than I could have typed it) and is also expensive (the only line that we deployed to production today.)

Re: Writing code is cheap now

#382

Post by simonw »

nikolasdimi wrote: post #362

Not sure if “code has always been expensive” is the right framing. Typing out a few hundred lines of code was never the real bottleneck. What was expensive was everything around it: making it correct, making it maintainable (often underestimated), coordinating across teams and supporting it long term. You can also overshoot: Testing every possible path, validating across every platform, or routing every change throug…

"What was expensive was everything around it" - when I say that code has always been expensive that's part of what I'm factoring in.

But even typing that first few hundred lines used to have a much more significant cost attached.

I just pasted 256 lines of JavaScript into the 2000s-era SLOCount tool (classic Perl, I have a WebAssembly hosted version here https://tools.simonwillison.net/sloccount) and it gave me a 2000s-era cost estimate of $6,461.

I wouldn't take that number with anything less than a giant fist of salt, but there you have it.

Re: Writing code is cheap now

#385

Post by exabrial »

code has never been expensive.

ridiculous asks are expensive. Not understanding limitations of computer systems are expensive.

The main problem is, and always will be communication. engineers are in general are quick to say "that won't work as you described" because they can see the steps that it takes to get there. Sales guys (CEOs) live a completely different world and they "hear" "I won't do that" from technical types. It's the ultimate impedance mismatch and the subject of countless seminars.

AI writing code at least reduces the cost of the inevitable failures, but doesn't solve the root problem.

Successful business will continue be those who's CTO/CEO relationship is a true partnership.

Re: Writing code is cheap now

#386

Post by hansmayer »

> "Code has always been expensive. Producing a few hundred lines of clean, tested code takes most software developers a full day or more. Many of our engineering habits, at both the macro and micro level, are built around this core constraint."

Well, yes and no. While producing two screens worth of high quality code, a.k.a. software engineering was always expensive, "coding" as such, as in producing Nth React SPA or merely typing out code that you engineered in your head, was never that expensive - most of the work is applying existing patterns. But either way, as you wrote the code yourself, you mostly had a consistent mental model of how your code should work and the key contribution was evolving this model, first in your head, then in typing out code. Now here comes the real problem for the LLMs: I think most of us would be fine if the LLMs could actually just type out the code for us after we engineered it in our heads and explained it to the LLM in English language. Alas, they do produce some sort of code, but not always, or often enough not in a way we desribed it. So unfortunately "AI" boosters like Simon are reverting back to the argument of fast code generation and an appeal to us as unwilling adopters, to "change our ways", as it shows they have no real advantage of the LLMs to put forward - its only ever the "coding" speed and an appeal to us as professionals to "adapt", i.e. serve as cleaners of LLM sh*t. Where is the superintelligence we were promised and single-person-billion dollar unicorns, unique use cases etc? Are you telling us again these are just advanced text generators, Simon?

Re: Writing code is cheap now

#387

Post by hluska »

nikolasdimi wrote: post #362

Not sure if “code has always been expensive” is the right framing. Typing out a few hundred lines of code was never the real bottleneck. What was expensive was everything around it: making it correct, making it maintainable (often underestimated), coordinating across teams and supporting it long term. You can also overshoot: Testing every possible path, validating across every platform, or routing every change throug…

I don’t understand why you would agree with the entire article yet frame it as disagreement.

Re: Writing code is cheap now

#388

Post by jasondigitized »

halfcat wrote: post #124
crystal_revenge wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not selling vibe slop, the "vibe slop" tools which work for one person enable of automation of tasks for the services we sell. Whether or not we use AI behind the scenes is entirely irrelevant to the service we're providing other than that it allows our margins to be higher and our speed of implementation to be faster. I absolutely agree that it's not logical to think "oh we'll sell our AI stuff", that's the ol…

> it allows our margins to be higher and our speed of implementation to be faster Faster than what? You will be faster than your previous self, just like all of your competitors. Where’s the net gain here? Even if you somehow managed to capture more value for yourself, you’ve stopped providing value to 5-10x that many employees who are no longer employed. When costs approach zero on a large scale, margins do not incr…

But they can scale hiring

Re: Writing code is cheap now

#389

Post by samiv »

Let me get this straight so basically with the chatbots everyone is now running faster than ever. Every business thinks they can get an advantage by increasing their velocity relative to their competition. But the competitive is doing the same so what is the outcome?

It feels like businesses are just going to speedrun their lifecycles faster than ever and useful idiots are doing the work of 10 people while getting paid for 1. The asset owning class obviously win as they can squeeze more profits from smaller amount of workers on the short term.

It's like everyone going to Rammstein concert where the people at the seats start standing in order to see better. This forces other to stand too, end result everyone is standing, everyone is worse off and nobody sees any better.

Re: Writing code is cheap now

#390

Post by simonw »

hansmayer wrote: post #386

> "Code has always been expensive. Producing a few hundred lines of clean, tested code takes most software developers a full day or more. Many of our engineering habits, at both the macro and micro level, are built around this core constraint." Well, yes and no. While producing two screens worth of high quality code, a.k.a. software engineering was always expensive, "coding" as such, as in producing Nth React SPA or…

> I think most of us would be fine if the LLMs could actually just type out the code for us after we engineered it in our heads and explained it to the LLM in English language. Alas, they do produce some sort of code, but not always, or often enough not in a way we desribed it.

That's exactly what they do for me - especially since the November model releases (GPT-5.1, Opus 4.5).

> Where is the superintelligence we were promised and single-person-billion dollar unicorns, unique use cases etc? Are you telling us again these are just advanced text generators, Simon?

I never promised anyone a superintelligence, or single-person-billion dollar unicorns.

I do think these things are just advanced text generators, albeit the word "just" is doing a whole lot of work in that sentence.

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