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Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

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Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#361

Post by virgil_disgr4ce »

amelius wrote: post #328
olivierestsage wrote: post #297

It really has gotten to the point where Linux offers the best option for a sane desktop experience. Watching Windows and macOS implode while KDE and Gnome slowly get better and better has really been something. Not quite at the point I'd recommend them for grandma and grandpa, but not that far off, either.

The main problem is that Apple wants to be opinionated. Linux is the polar opposite of that. People used to say the latter is bad, but it turns out the former is way worse (many hackers of course already knew this). > Not quite at the point I'd recommend them for grandma and grandpa, but not that far off, either. But at this point grandma and grandpa are the only ones I'd recommend to use Apple devices.

Opinionation (heh, opinionatedness?)'s value is entirely different depending on the user category.

Hackers by and large don't want opinionated, because they're willing to spend the time configuring & customizing AND have the knowledge to do so.

Just about everyone else (as far as I can tell) very specifically do not want this, and for those who do, the amount of customizeability e.g. MacOS offers is enough. Having an immediately-useable computer (recent problems notwithstanding) is of much greater value.

So when you say "The main problem is that Apple wants to be opinionated" I can only conclude that you're coming at this from the 'hacker' POV. But I may be misunderstanding your comment.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#362

Post by amelius »

virgil_disgr4ce wrote: post #361
amelius wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem is that Apple wants to be opinionated. Linux is the polar opposite of that. People used to say the latter is bad, but it turns out the former is way worse (many hackers of course already knew this). > Not quite at the point I'd recommend them for grandma and grandpa, but not that far off, either. But at this point grandma and grandpa are the only ones I'd recommend to use Apple devices.

Opinionation (heh, opinionatedness?)'s value is entirely different depending on the user category. Hackers by and large don't want opinionated, because they're willing to spend the time configuring & customizing AND have the knowledge to do so. Just about everyone else (as far as I can tell) very specifically do not want this, and for those who do, the amount of customizeability e.g. MacOS offers is enough. Having an…

I think the problem is that opinionatedness assumes that the average user exists and represents the majority of your users.

But every user is in many ways non-average.

Thus if you create a system tailored at the average user, then none of your users will be happy.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#363

Post by bpavuk »

bjackman wrote: post #322
olivierestsage wrote: post #297

It really has gotten to the point where Linux offers the best option for a sane desktop experience. Watching Windows and macOS implode while KDE and Gnome slowly get better and better has really been something. Not quite at the point I'd recommend them for grandma and grandpa, but not that far off, either.

My mother (age 70, non technical) uses Gnome with no issues.

Gnome is just perfect for non-techies :)

my mother and younger sister both prefer it over default Windows 10/11 design. mum says, "feels similar to my phone [pure Android 12] yet I can do so much more".

given that sister only really needs Steam Big Picture and everything mother uses is already in Flathub or defined in a Nix flake, they didn't experience any ecosystem issues

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#364

Post by pmdr »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #340

This is exactly the type of issue Steve Jobs would notice and then you're fired. The UI is the main event. If you can't get it right you don't work on it ever again.

Well Cook's Apple is mostly about money coming in, so as long as that's happening he's not obsessing over quality.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#365

Post by treis »

virgil_disgr4ce wrote: post #356
sjogress wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally replaced Windows 10 with Linux Mint on my very computer illiterate mother in law's laptop a few months back. Haven't heard any complaints so far. Linux is ready for prime time for anyone not bound to Windows/MacOS software. Personally, I'm still on MacOS for work, but all my personal devices run some form of Linux. It's been liberating to say the least.

> Linux is ready for prime time for anyone not bound to Windows/MacOS software. I suspect in order for this to be true we'd need a PR campaign that can shift culture on the scale of civil rights. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic or deride Linux or anything—I agree that technologically it's probably ready. Overall UX I'm slightly skeptical. But the far bigger problem is culture. There's already been a shift away from "…

The frustrating thing is that developers are some of the most reluctant to change. I'm sick of fighting docker on my Mac among the many other problems. But if we can't break away nobody else is going to either.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#366

Post by fullstop »

sjogress wrote: post #317
olivierestsage wrote: post #297

It really has gotten to the point where Linux offers the best option for a sane desktop experience. Watching Windows and macOS implode while KDE and Gnome slowly get better and better has really been something. Not quite at the point I'd recommend them for grandma and grandpa, but not that far off, either.

Personally replaced Windows 10 with Linux Mint on my very computer illiterate mother in law's laptop a few months back. Haven't heard any complaints so far. Linux is ready for prime time for anyone not bound to Windows/MacOS software. Personally, I'm still on MacOS for work, but all my personal devices run some form of Linux. It's been liberating to say the least.

My daughter did this for her boyfriend's grandma, except she used Kinoite. The immutable aspect of it makes it very difficult to break.

She was over there recently and the downloads folder was littered with malware .exe files, so the grandma is trying her hardest to break it.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#367

Post by ndiddy »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #94
ndiddy wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That used to be the case, but in 10.7 they changed the green window button from being "zoom" (snap the window to fit its content) to "fullscreen". They let you change the default behavior back to zoom for a few years but seem to have gotten rid of that setting. You can still access the zoom behavior by option-clicking the green button, but on basically every program I've tried, zoom just means "maximize" like on Wind…

The behavior of the (now option-clicked) zoom button is actually determined by each individual program. Most stock apps will either fit to content or toggle between the last two recent sizes, but a lot of third party apps (especially those built with foreign UI frameworks) tend to turn it into a maximize button.

It looks like "apps built with foreign UI frameworks" includes all the stuff Apple's written in SwiftUI, as all those apps (Mail, Calendar, Messages, Music, Podcasts, Notes, etc) treat zoom as maximize.

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#368

Post by endemic »

sgt wrote: post #337
olivierestsage wrote: post #297

It really has gotten to the point where Linux offers the best option for a sane desktop experience. Watching Windows and macOS implode while KDE and Gnome slowly get better and better has really been something. Not quite at the point I'd recommend them for grandma and grandpa, but not that far off, either.

Sorry but you clearly haven't used macOS. Linux on the desktop is still about 15 years behind, and I tried it recently. It's such an inconsistent experience it's almost hilarious. Speaking as a Tahoe user by the way who is not experiencing any issues to speak of (on 26.0.1 - and I can't reproduce the resizing inconsistency either). I've been using macOS since 2003 (back when it was called Mac OS X) and before that I…

I'd be curious to hear more specifics regarding the "15 years behind" and "inconsistent experience."

Re: Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues

#369

Post by patrickmay »

learn_more wrote: post #10

>In total the thickness went down from 7 to 6 pixels, which is a 14% decrease, making it 14% more likely to miss it. Pedantic, but chance of miss is actually less than 14% more likely since the user's click location is not uniformly random over the thickness area, it's biased toward the center (normally distributed).

Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
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