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Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

reuters.com

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Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#331

Post by roenxi »

tappio wrote: post #317
qeternity wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t think it would be possible without the tax exemption. Maybe it shouldn't be possible. Society is telling your friend that her work is not particularly valuable and that she should probably consider doing something else.

This is a false assumption. We will only know retrospectively whether it was valuable or not. 1. She gets better all the time, and might be super popular in the future 2. Many writings became relevant only long after the death of the author

A lot of those relevant writings became relevant because of the horrible experiences the author went through forged them into an interesting writer. If we're assuming that we only know retrospectively whether the writing is important then the best course of action would be for people to write as a hobby and make choices that are likely (rather than unlikely) to lead to a comfortable life. Particularly in this current era where we might suspect that writing and publishing a book is getting much easier thanks to technology.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#332

Post by karolinepauls »

qeternity wrote: post #312
BryantD wrote: post #272

Ireland has already provided substantial benefits to artists — income from art is exempt from income tax up to a certain level. Society has not disintegrated. Speculation and anecdotes are not terribly useful but my Irish author friend is not from a rich family, nor is she well-off, but she’s able to support her husband and child in a smaller Irish city by dint of writing several books a year and stressing a lot. I d…

> I don’t think it would be possible without the tax exemption. Maybe it shouldn't be possible. Society is telling your friend that her work is not particularly valuable and that she should probably consider doing something else.

As demonstrated, crisps are more valuable to the society than art.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#333

Post by philipallstar »

fedeb95 wrote: post #325

this kind of reasoning will accumulate so much inefficiencies that it will eventually blow up. Or, in the best case scenario, create a proportional inflation that makes this subsidies useless. Think about the big picture: your salary is a cost for someone else. In the case of "basic income" is a cost for the tax payers. Who decides what benefits the tax payers? The state can't possibly do it, if not for a limited ext…

People love to carve out little niches where certain special people can succeed more easily, or the pyramid of people in competition for the prize/money is smaller, so they have a better chance of getting something out of it. The trick is not to be working class and you have a good shot at someone somewhere being someone who has some influence to give you an easier ride.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#334

Post by krige »

qeternity wrote: post #312
BryantD wrote: post #272

Ireland has already provided substantial benefits to artists — income from art is exempt from income tax up to a certain level. Society has not disintegrated. Speculation and anecdotes are not terribly useful but my Irish author friend is not from a rich family, nor is she well-off, but she’s able to support her husband and child in a smaller Irish city by dint of writing several books a year and stressing a lot. I d…

> I don’t think it would be possible without the tax exemption. Maybe it shouldn't be possible. Society is telling your friend that her work is not particularly valuable and that she should probably consider doing something else.

Society told Van Gogh that nobody wants or will ever want his work. He killed (probably) himself out of depression and feeling unwanted, miserable.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#335

Post by philipallstar »

pwim wrote: post #314
qeternity wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t think it would be possible without the tax exemption. Maybe it shouldn't be possible. Society is telling your friend that her work is not particularly valuable and that she should probably consider doing something else.

There’s plenty of things that are valuable for society while still not having significant financial value.

Money is generally how we describe value.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#336

Post by extraduder_ire »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #127
bell-cot wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...I think people who benefit... 325 Euros/week sounds like basic rent & food & transportation. Not artsy projects with enough spare Euros for someone to skim serious money off from. Providing "free" studios, supplies, instruments, etc. sounds like a scheme to give politicians more photo ops and bureaucrats more jobs. Why can't the artists just source exactly what they think they need from existing supply chains?

It's about 60% of the Irish minimum wage. So more of a nice gesture than a generous handout or a true attempt at UBI.

There is no requirement that it be the entirety of someone's income.

The normal welfare and employment system still applies to recipients, which is one of the more notable things about it.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#337

Post by fedeb95 »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #62
Legend2440 wrote: post #5

>pledging to pay 2,000 creative workers 325 euros ($387) per week >The randomly selected applicants will receive the payments for three years, after which they would not be eligible for the next three-year cycle. Is it really correct to call this UBI? It is hardly universal if it applies to only 2000 selected artists. Seems more like a 3-year grant, similar to the art grants awarded by the national endowment for the…

It's not universal if only selected individuals get it. And you can't live on 325 euros in a place like Ireland. So it's not even basic income. But it's a nice temporary subsidy. Proper basic income has never really been tried. It would have to be universal (for the entire population) and be enough to live on. Most countries have non universal basic income in the form of benefits, state pensions, food stamps, and var…

Every time UBI or some variant of it are presented, it is always presented as a benefit, so ti seems really nive. What I don't ever see addressed, is how it will work from a cost perspective. UBI is a cost: a Universal Basic Cost. Who will pay basic incomes? Businesses? The tax payers? In both of this cases, why resort to an inefficient method (the state setting prices) instead on relying on price formation as (roughly) it is today? I too don't care about moral, and I'm also sad that both supporters and detractors talk about morals. I'm honestly curious in how it could ever work: because money doesn't grow on trees, that is, value is not extracted from the Earth without labor (and innovation of technologies to work less for the same extraction work). So, in the end, it's a way of redistributing resources.

This is setting morals aside. Moral and ethics could be considered, but it's a far wider topic than a HN comment allows. An hint: nobody asks why a moral phenomenon came up in the first place. It must have had a function in society... maybe it still has today.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#338

Post by altacc »

tomcam wrote: post #144

I don’t get it. Why are artists more deserving than unemployed insurance salespeople or carpet installers?

What you describe is not a real choice that is being made. The unemployed in Ireland get unemployment benefits, so this isn't favouring one over the other. The Artist's UBI is not enough to live on (neither are most countries' unemployment benefits to be fair) but in general a salesperson or carpet installer when in employment will make a decent living, whereas artists don't. Society tends to under value the arts and overvalue commerce (and any free market arguments about this consistently fail to reflect reality), and this address some of the balance. They did an analysis (probably generously) and found that there would actually be an ROI for this UBI.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#339

Post by graemep »

fedeb95 wrote: post #325

this kind of reasoning will accumulate so much inefficiencies that it will eventually blow up. Or, in the best case scenario, create a proportional inflation that makes this subsidies useless. Think about the big picture: your salary is a cost for someone else. In the case of "basic income" is a cost for the tax payers. Who decides what benefits the tax payers? The state can't possibly do it, if not for a limited ext…

Art is not a free market. The art market is heavily manipulated by investors in art.

The subsidies and tax exemptions artists receive are small so if you are arguing for less state subsidy or its the least of the problems you should look at.

I am not convinced that this particular scheme is a good idea, but the alternative is not a free market.

> then maybe small businesses?

Big business already receives both explicit exemptions and defacto ones. Ireland is part of the mechanism that lets they structure their businesses in ways that avoid tax that are not available to small businesses.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#340

Post by nvader »

philipallstar wrote: post #335
pwim wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s plenty of things that are valuable for society while still not having significant financial value.

Money is generally how we describe value.

Almost all religions, a good chunk of philosophy and even a good bit of economics would differ with you.

I hope you find out before it's too late.

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