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Claude Code is being dumbed down?

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Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#461

Post by toraway »

minimaxir wrote: post #123
theappsecguy wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone and I mean everyone keeps parroting this "inflection point" marketing hype, which is so damn tiring.

Believe me, I wish it was just parroting. The real annoying thing about Opus 4.5 is that it's impossible to publicly say "Opus 4.5 is an order of magnitude better than coding LLMs released just months before it" without sounding like a AI hype booster clickbaiting, but it's the counterintuitive truth, to my personal frustration. I have been trying to break this damn model since its November release by giving it compl…

Wait, are you really saying you have never had Opus 4.5 fail at a programming task you've given it? That strains credulity somewhat... and would certainly contribute to people believing you're exaggerating/hyping up Opus 4.5 beyond what can be reasonably supported.

Also, "order of magnitude better" is such plainly obvious exaggeration it does call your objectivity into question about Opus 4.5 vs. previous models and/or the competition.

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#462

Post by extr »

bcherny wrote: post #419
extr wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I mentioned this in the thread (I am the guy in the big GH issue who actually used verbose mode and gave specific likes/dislikes), but I find it frustrating that ctrl+o still seems to truncate at strange boundaries. I am looking at an open CC session right now with verbose mode enabled - works pretty well and I'm glad you're fixing the subagent thing. But when I hit ctrl+o, I only see more detailed output for th…

Yes totally. ctrl+o used to show all messages, but this is one of the tricky things about building in a terminal: because many terminals are quite slow, it is hard to render a large amount of output at once without causing tearing/stutter. That said, we recently rewrote our renderer to make it much more efficient, so we can bump up the default a bit. Let me see what it feels like to show the last 10-20 messages -- fi…

thanks dude. you are living my worst nightmare which is that my ultra cool tech demo i made for cracked engineers on the bleeding edge with 128GB ram apple silicon using frontier AI gets adopted by everyone in the world and becomes load bearing so now it needs to run on chromebooks from 2005. and if it doesn't work on those laptops then my entire company gets branded as washed and not goated and my cozy twitter account is spammed with "why didn't you just write it in rust lel".

o7

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#463

Post by eldarrr »

bcherny wrote: post #386

Hey, Boris from the Claude Code team here. I wanted to take a sec to explain the context for this change. One of the hard things about building a product on an LLM is that the model frequently changes underneath you. Since we introduced Claude Code almost a year ago, Claude has gotten more intelligent, it runs for longer periods of time, and it is able to more agentically use more tools. This is one of the magical th…

so its the users who are dumb :-)

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#464

Post by mbesto »

alphazard wrote: post #328
mbesto wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sentiment is going exactly against the trend right now. AI coding is making technically minded product manager's MORE powerful not less. When/if coding just because your ability to accurately describe what you want to build, the people yielding this skill are the ones who understand customer requirements, not the opposite. > Find your most socially competent engineer, These usually get promoted to product manage…

> This sentiment is going exactly against the trend right now. It's not. Engineers are having more and more minutia and busy work taken off their plate, now done by AI. That allows them to be heads up more often, more of their cognitive capacity is directed towards strategy, design, quality. Meanwhile, users are building more and more of their own tools in house. Why pay someone when you can vibe code a working solut…

> if it's complex: it's going to the smartest person in the room. That has never been the PM.

Yet the PM always has the last say on what goes in the product, NOT the engineer. Funny how that works...

None of your conclusions are consistent with experience (interviewed 900+ SaaS management teams)

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#465

Post by adriand »

gambiter wrote: post #450
bcherny wrote: post #386

Hey, Boris from the Claude Code team here. I wanted to take a sec to explain the context for this change. One of the hard things about building a product on an LLM is that the model frequently changes underneath you. Since we introduced Claude Code almost a year ago, Claude has gotten more intelligent, it runs for longer periods of time, and it is able to more agentically use more tools. This is one of the magical th…

> We can no longer design for ourselves, and we rely heavily on community feedback to co-design the right experience. We cannot build the right things without that feedback. How can that be true, when you're deliberately and repeatedly telling devs (the community you claim to listen to) that you know better than they do? They're telling you exactly what they want, and you're telling them, "Nah." That isn't listening.…

I’m witnessing him respond in real time with not just feedback but also actual changes, in a respectful and constructive manner - which is not easy to do, when there are people who communicate in this rude of a manner. If that’s not listening, then I don’t know what is.

And it shouldn’t need to be said, but the words that appear on the screen are from an actual person with, you know, feelings.

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#466

Post by nubg »

bcherny wrote: post #386

Hey, Boris from the Claude Code team here. I wanted to take a sec to explain the context for this change. One of the hard things about building a product on an LLM is that the model frequently changes underneath you. Since we introduced Claude Code almost a year ago, Claude has gotten more intelligent, it runs for longer periods of time, and it is able to more agentically use more tools. This is one of the magical th…

this was written with claude lmao what a disgrace not to put a disclaimer.

use your own words!

i would rather read the prompt.

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#467

Post by dkarl »

alphazard wrote: post #216
vintagedave wrote: post #117

> That’s it. “Read 3 files.” Which files? Doesn’t matter. “Searched for 1 pattern.” What pattern? Who cares. Product manager here. Cynically, this is classic product management: simplify and remove useful information under the guise of 'improving the user experience' or perhaps minimalism if you're more overt about your influences. It's something that as an industry we should be over by now. It requires deep understa…

Product management might be the worst meme in the industry. Hire people who have never used the product and don't think like or accurately represent our users, then let them allocate engineering resources and gate what ships. What could go wrong? It should be a fad gone by at this point, but people never learn. Here's what to do instead: Find your most socially competent engineer, and have them talk to users a couple…

I've worked with some really good product managers, as well as some total duds. They all talked to customers on a regular basis. There is so much more to the job than that. Every time I think I understand a product manager's job completely, I see one fail in a way I hadn't thought about.

For example, I had one product manager who made themselves irrelevant because they wouldn't work with sales. The company needed to sell the product to pay us, and sales talked with potential buyers about what might swing their purchase decision and what they would pay extra for. Since the PM only talked to users and ignored sales when doing product design and product roadmaps, the way sales input got integrated into product development is that we frequently got top-down directives from management to prioritize one-off requests from sales over the roadmap. Needless to say, this didn't lead to a cohesive and easy-to-understand product.

Before I saw that PM failing, I hadn't thought about the relationship between product and sales.

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#468

Post by jiggawatts »

bcherny wrote: post #386

Hey, Boris from the Claude Code team here. I wanted to take a sec to explain the context for this change. One of the hard things about building a product on an LLM is that the model frequently changes underneath you. Since we introduced Claude Code almost a year ago, Claude has gotten more intelligent, it runs for longer periods of time, and it is able to more agentically use more tools. This is one of the magical th…

> in some terminal emulators, rendering is extremely slow.

Ooo... ooo! I know what this is a reference to!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxM8QmyZXtg

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#469

Post by consumer451 »

bcherny wrote: post #443
btown wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll add a counterpoint that in many situations (especially monorepos for complex businesses), it's easy for any LLM to go down rabbit holes. Files containing the word "payment" or "onboarding" might be for entirely different DDD domains than the one relevant to the problem. As a CTO touching all sorts of surfaces, I see this problem at least once a day, entirely driven by trying to move too fast with my prompts. And…

> I don't want verbose mode. I want Claude to tell me what it's reading in the first 3 seconds, so I can switch gears without fear it's going to the wrong part of the codebase. By saying that my use case requires verbose mode, you're saying that I need to see massive levels of babysitting-level output (even if less massive than before) to be able to do this. To be clear: we re-purposed verbose mode to do exactly what…

This is an interesting and complex ui decision to make.

Might it have been better to retire and/or rename the feature, if the underlying action was very different?

I work on silly basic stuff compared to Claude Code, but I find that I confuse fewer users if I rename a button instead of just changing the underlying effect.

This causes me to have to create new docs, and hopefully triggers affected users to find those docs, when they ask themselves “what happened to that button?”

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