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Claude Code is being dumbed down?

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Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#441

Post by wahnfrieden »

ctoth wrote: post #433
bcherny wrote: post #386

Hey, Boris from the Claude Code team here. I wanted to take a sec to explain the context for this change. One of the hard things about building a product on an LLM is that the model frequently changes underneath you. Since we introduced Claude Code almost a year ago, Claude has gotten more intelligent, it runs for longer periods of time, and it is able to more agentically use more tools. This is one of the magical th…

I'm a screen reader user and CTO of an accessibility company. This change doesn't reduce noise for me. It removes functionality. Sighted users lost convenience. I lost the ability to trust the tool. There is no "glancing" at terminal output with a screen reader. There is no "progressive disclosure." The text is either spoken to me or it doesn't exist. When you collapse file paths into "Read 3 files," I have no way to…

Try Codex instead. Much greener pastures overall

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#442

Post by ilikepi »

gchamonlive wrote: post #193
toyg wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an escape goat Autocorrect hall of famer, there.

Scapegoat, got it. Can't blame the autocorrect though... I honestly thought it was spelled like that, which is a shame since I've been studying English my entire life as a second language.

There's a name for this sort of phenomenon...

https://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/242/escape-goat/

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#443

Post by bcherny »

btown wrote: post #436
bcherny wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think folks might be crossing wires a bit. To make it so you can see full file paths, we repurposed verbose mode to enable the old explicit file output, while hiding more details behind ctrl+o. In effect, we've evolved verbose mode to be multi-state, so that it lets you toggle back to the old behavior while giving you a way to see even more verbose output, while still defaulting everyone else to the condensed view.…

I'll add a counterpoint that in many situations (especially monorepos for complex businesses), it's easy for any LLM to go down rabbit holes. Files containing the word "payment" or "onboarding" might be for entirely different DDD domains than the one relevant to the problem. As a CTO touching all sorts of surfaces, I see this problem at least once a day, entirely driven by trying to move too fast with my prompts. And…

> I don't want verbose mode. I want Claude to tell me what it's reading in the first 3 seconds, so I can switch gears without fear it's going to the wrong part of the codebase. By saying that my use case requires verbose mode, you're saying that I need to see massive levels of babysitting-level output (even if less massive than before) to be able to do this.

To be clear: we re-purposed verbose mode to do exactly what you are asking for. We kept the name "verbose mode", but the behavior is what you want, without the other verbose output.

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#444

Post by bcherny »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #429
bcherny wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think folks might be crossing wires a bit. To make it so you can see full file paths, we repurposed verbose mode to enable the old explicit file output, while hiding more details behind ctrl+o. In effect, we've evolved verbose mode to be multi-state, so that it lets you toggle back to the old behavior while giving you a way to see even more verbose output, while still defaulting everyone else to the condensed view.…

Honestly, I just want to be able to control precisely what I see via config.json. It will probably differ depending on the project. This is a developer tool, I don't see why you'd shy away from providing granular configuration (alongside reasonable defaults). I actually miss being able to see all of the thinking, for example, because I could tell more quickly when the model was making a wrong assumption and intervene…

That's a cool idea!

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#445

Post by bcherny »

trb wrote: post #431
bcherny wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think folks might be crossing wires a bit. To make it so you can see full file paths, we repurposed verbose mode to enable the old explicit file output, while hiding more details behind ctrl+o. In effect, we've evolved verbose mode to be multi-state, so that it lets you toggle back to the old behavior while giving you a way to see even more verbose output, while still defaulting everyone else to the condensed view.…

I've commented on this ticket before: https://github.com/anthropics/claude-code/issues/8477#issuec... The thinking mode is super-useful to me as I _often_ saw the model "think" differently from the response. Stuff like "I can see that I need to look for x, y, z to full understand the problem" and then proceeds to just not do that. This is helpful as I can interrupt the process and guide it to actually do this. With t…

Yep, this is what we landed now, more or less: verbose mode is just file paths, then ctrl+o gives you thinking, agent output, and hook output.

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#446

Post by bcherny »

ctoth wrote: post #433
bcherny wrote: post #386

Hey, Boris from the Claude Code team here. I wanted to take a sec to explain the context for this change. One of the hard things about building a product on an LLM is that the model frequently changes underneath you. Since we introduced Claude Code almost a year ago, Claude has gotten more intelligent, it runs for longer periods of time, and it is able to more agentically use more tools. This is one of the magical th…

I'm a screen reader user and CTO of an accessibility company. This change doesn't reduce noise for me. It removes functionality. Sighted users lost convenience. I lost the ability to trust the tool. There is no "glancing" at terminal output with a screen reader. There is no "progressive disclosure." The text is either spoken to me or it doesn't exist. When you collapse file paths into "Read 3 files," I have no way to…

Hey -- we take accessibility seriously, and want Claude Code to work well for you. This is why we have repurposed verbose mode to do what you want, without the other verbose output. Please give it a try and let me know what you think.

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#447

Post by ctoth »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #441
ctoth wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a screen reader user and CTO of an accessibility company. This change doesn't reduce noise for me. It removes functionality. Sighted users lost convenience. I lost the ability to trust the tool. There is no "glancing" at terminal output with a screen reader. There is no "progressive disclosure." The text is either spoken to me or it doesn't exist. When you collapse file paths into "Read 3 files," I have no way to…

Try Codex instead. Much greener pastures overall

I do love my subagents and I wrote an entire Claude Code audio hook system for a11y but this would be still rather compelling if Codex weren't also somewhat of an a11y nightmare. It does some weird thing with ... maybe terminal repaints or something else that ends up rereading the same text over and over. Claude Code does this similarly but Codex ends up reading like ... all the weird symbols and other stuff? window decorations? and not just the text like CC does. They are both hellish but CC slightly? less so... until now.

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#448

Post by ctoth »

bcherny wrote: post #446
ctoth wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a screen reader user and CTO of an accessibility company. This change doesn't reduce noise for me. It removes functionality. Sighted users lost convenience. I lost the ability to trust the tool. There is no "glancing" at terminal output with a screen reader. There is no "progressive disclosure." The text is either spoken to me or it doesn't exist. When you collapse file paths into "Read 3 files," I have no way to…

Hey -- we take accessibility seriously, and want Claude Code to work well for you. This is why we have repurposed verbose mode to do what you want, without the other verbose output. Please give it a try and let me know what you think.

> we take accessibility seriously

Do you guys have a screen reader user on the dev team?

Is verbose mode the same as the old mode, where only file paths are spoken? Or does it have other text in it? Because I tried to articulate, and may have failed. More text is usually bad for me. It must be consumed linearly. I need specific text.

Quality over quantity

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#449

Post by [deleted] »

ctoth wrote: post #433
bcherny wrote: post #386

Hey, Boris from the Claude Code team here. I wanted to take a sec to explain the context for this change. One of the hard things about building a product on an LLM is that the model frequently changes underneath you. Since we introduced Claude Code almost a year ago, Claude has gotten more intelligent, it runs for longer periods of time, and it is able to more agentically use more tools. This is one of the magical th…

I'm a screen reader user and CTO of an accessibility company. This change doesn't reduce noise for me. It removes functionality. Sighted users lost convenience. I lost the ability to trust the tool. There is no "glancing" at terminal output with a screen reader. There is no "progressive disclosure." The text is either spoken to me or it doesn't exist. When you collapse file paths into "Read 3 files," I have no way to…

[deleted]

Re: Claude Code is being dumbed down?

#450

Post by gambiter »

bcherny wrote: post #386

Hey, Boris from the Claude Code team here. I wanted to take a sec to explain the context for this change. One of the hard things about building a product on an LLM is that the model frequently changes underneath you. Since we introduced Claude Code almost a year ago, Claude has gotten more intelligent, it runs for longer periods of time, and it is able to more agentically use more tools. This is one of the magical th…

> We can no longer design for ourselves, and we rely heavily on community feedback to co-design the right experience. We cannot build the right things without that feedback.

How can that be true, when you're deliberately and repeatedly telling devs (the community you claim to listen to) that you know better than they do? They're telling you exactly what they want, and you're telling them, "Nah." That isn't listening. You understand that, right?

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