Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 736 posts

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#71

Post by Legend2440 »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #59
Legend2440 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble is that paying a few people to not work is very very different from paying everyone to not work. We need people to work to produce the things they need to live. As long as this remains true, UBI can never happen. This fantasy of being able to live without working is out of touch with the cold hard reality.

The problem is soon (and to some extent currently) there won't be enough work for everyone, and there definitely won't be enough to support them at a historical lifestyle level. I guess those people continuing to live (or live semi-well) would be fantasy to you. I'm not sure where society will go at that point. The western world has sold a 'we are improving your life' story to get buy in from the masses. What do you…

Your entire idea of economics is backwards.

There is more than enough work for everyone right now, and (outside of recessions) we will not run out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

As more and more work is automated, the lifestyle level increases rather than decreases. Automation lets you produce more with the same amount of labor, increasing productivity and raising the standard of living. This is the sole reason we're not subsistence farmers right now.

War does not help the masses; it is purely destructive and one of the worst things you can do for the economy in the long run.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#72

Post by nradov »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #59
Legend2440 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble is that paying a few people to not work is very very different from paying everyone to not work. We need people to work to produce the things they need to live. As long as this remains true, UBI can never happen. This fantasy of being able to live without working is out of touch with the cold hard reality.

The problem is soon (and to some extent currently) there won't be enough work for everyone, and there definitely won't be enough to support them at a historical lifestyle level. I guess those people continuing to live (or live semi-well) would be fantasy to you. I'm not sure where society will go at that point. The western world has sold a 'we are improving your life' story to get buy in from the masses. What do you…

How soon is "soon"? I don't know about Ireland but the US unemployment rate remains near record lows. We still don't have robots that can snake out a plugged toilet.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#73

Post by bell-cot »

mantas wrote: post #33
bell-cot wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and why are artists being subsidized instead of essential workers? There are far more than 2,000 real, paying jobs for schoolteachers. And for grocery clerks. And for nurses. And for fire fighters. And for drivers of rubbish lorries. And for ... Not so much for the folks who hope to be the next James Joyce or Louis le Brocquy.

Those can go and do normal jobs like grocery clerks. While doing their art in free time. Like many famous artists were doing.

With the modest size of the monthly checks, most of them may need to do that anyway.

But the obvious point is to help "artists" in Ireland. It's pretty normal for small nations to want to cultivate / protect / subsidize their arts / culture / language / whatever. The Irish gov't isn't trumpeting this program because they think it'll annoy Irish voters.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#74

Post by lostlogin »

Legend2440 wrote: post #43
oulipo2 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And? that's what "rolling out" is about, to test and gradually use the scheme if it works

The trouble is that paying a few people to not work is very very different from paying everyone to not work. We need people to work to produce the things they need to live. As long as this remains true, UBI can never happen. This fantasy of being able to live without working is out of touch with the cold hard reality.

> As long as this remains true, UBI can never happen.

New Zealand pays a pension to everyone over 65, whether or not they are working. No means testing and little political will to move the age upward. About 25% of those over 65 work, and the percentage is growing.

There are multiple reasons this could be true (eg, limited savings forcing work). The lack of means testing obviously saves money and shenanigans working out who is entitled, though the ‘universal’ nature limited how much a needy recipient can get.

I argue this is a test case on UBI.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#75

Post by jamesbelchamber »

Jtsummers wrote: post #65
jamesbelchamber wrote: post #63

If they think this is good/important then fine but what they've created is a grant programme, not a UBI. Personally I would have thought this money would have been better spent getting people on the margins the stability to retrain into in-demand skilled careers (e.g. single, unskilled parents training as electricians or plumbers). That feels like it would be a more durable, multi-generational benefit. But again, thi…

> not a UBI Who said it is a UBI that this "rebuttal" even makes sense to appear here? The Irish government isn't calling it a UBI. The article doesn't call it a UBI. Even the FAQ for the program says it is not UBI: >> Why this is not a Universal Basic Income >> It is important to note that that the Basic Income for the Arts Pilot is not a Universal Basic Income. This is a sectoral intervention to support practicing…

Basic Income and UBI are colloquially synonyms, people use them interchangeably, and the Irish government are almost certainly using it to endear themselves to supporters of UBI and to get more coverage for their policy than media would give them if they just called it a grant.

This happens all the time. For example, in the UK there was a push for a "living wage" in the 2010s, which the government responded to by rebranding the minimum wage the "National Living Wage" and bumping it a little for over-25s.

This seems to be the same thing.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#76

Post by Legend2440 »

nradov wrote: post #70
jillesvangurp wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not universal if only selected individuals get it. And you can't live on 325 euros in a place like Ireland. So it's not even basic income. But it's a nice temporary subsidy. Proper basic income has never really been tried. It would have to be universal (for the entire population) and be enough to live on. Most countries have non universal basic income in the form of benefits, state pensions, food stamps, and var…

And "proper" UBI will never actually be tried, at least not on any significant scale. Because if you actually run the numbers you'll see that the level of taxation required plus the inflationary effects make the whole scheme unworkable.

Taxation and inflation are 2nd order effects. There's a deeper underlying reason.

The point of work is to produce the things we need to live. Somebody's gotta grow the crops, drive the trucks, mop the floors, crunch the numbers, process the paperwork, write the code, whatever.

If you offer enough UBI for people to live without working... the work won't get done, and things we need won't get made.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#77

Post by mikkupikku »

seneca wrote: post #52
Imnimo wrote: post #18

>The randomly selected applicants Why would you want to randomly select here?

Mostly because the kind of people who run and advocate for programs like this are actively hostile to the idea of merit. Prioritizing talented people would be antithetical to them.

Prioritizing merit would be fine if there was some way to measure merit empirically, and if that measure couldn't be gamed by anybody with money and/or connections. But this is for artists, so...

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#78

Post by mikkupikku »

badc0ffee wrote: post #61
paul7986 wrote: post #11

Dublin's Grafton Street with it's buskers is and was so unique to this American. I wondered if anywhere else in the world matches the musicianship heard on that street and in Dublin's bars? Music is engrained in it's culture in a way I have not experienced before(tho the weird looks I received wearing my baseball cap in Dublin was off putting as I had not experienced that in Berlin, Paris, Reykjavik, Amsterdamn, etc)…

I need to hear more about the baseball cap thing.

Europeans don't really play baseball, presumably they all wear football and cricket hats instead.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#79

Post by [deleted] »

Legend2440 wrote: post #5

>pledging to pay 2,000 creative workers 325 euros ($387) per week >The randomly selected applicants will receive the payments for three years, after which they would not be eligible for the next three-year cycle. Is it really correct to call this UBI? It is hardly universal if it applies to only 2000 selected artists. Seems more like a 3-year grant, similar to the art grants awarded by the national endowment for the…

[deleted]

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#80

Post by paul7986 »

badc0ffee wrote: post #61
paul7986 wrote: post #11

Dublin's Grafton Street with it's buskers is and was so unique to this American. I wondered if anywhere else in the world matches the musicianship heard on that street and in Dublin's bars? Music is engrained in it's culture in a way I have not experienced before(tho the weird looks I received wearing my baseball cap in Dublin was off putting as I had not experienced that in Berlin, Paris, Reykjavik, Amsterdamn, etc)…

I need to hear more about the baseball cap thing.

I heard Emily Blunt say on Graham Norton, "We know your American with your baseball cap." I know that's the UK but maybe it holds true for Dublin too.

The looks were strange and from women in their 20s as I walked around Dublin. Im not much to look at yet do not receive such looks or rude behavior (one purposely did not hold the bathroom door at starbucks as I waited my turn 25 feet away waiting to get in rather she purposely pushed the door to close) at home in the DC region or my travels throughout the US and Europe. Another American mentioned a similar experience too. My friend traveling with me he was not wearing a hat & did not experience any such thing.

Post reply on HN