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Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

europeanbusinessmagazine.com

601–610 of 1001 posts

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My usual response to claims like this is “if it’s so easy, why haven’t you done it yet?”

Trolling is not insightful. A number of other companies already have "done it" and are in use across the world. The question is why aren't western nations ALL using alternates yet? The article is pointing out that a new attempt is gaining political momentum, which answers the question.

Those alternatives are not worldwide payment networks with near-universal acceptance. They’re scoped much smaller. Even then, those independent efforts have either been implemented by law as a political strategic measure or are subsidized. They wouldn’t exist but for those supporting elements. Having federated payment networks may be good politics, but it’s not particularly efficient and it impedes world trade.

At any rate, making someone who haughtily trivializes a problem solve that same problem is a useful exercise both in the complexity of the subject matter, and—perhaps more importantly—in humility.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#602
post #32
post #20

Even putting aside issue of geopolitics, it's quite baffling to me that every country besides China and Russia are paying ~0.2% "sales tax" to corporate America.

This. And don't forget that most businesses have in their payment processing contract terms (set forth by Visa/MC ) that prevent the business from directly charging card users the card processing fees. Which means that everybody - even cash users - pay for those fees. What a racket.

This has broke down in the last 5 years in the Asean region. Now most shops (that still accept cards) charges you 3-5% if you pay with Visa/Mastercard.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#603
post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You guys use the debit card linked to your primary bank account??? There's been virtual cards for online shopping for 10+ years now. They're meant to be linked to an empty or low amount bank account. Now with Revolut you can schedule auto top-up to keep this low amount up to date. Not to mention the per-purchase (online/in-person) limits, mandatory PIN entry, and daily maximums...

We don't use any cards for online shopping, what do you mean? In most European countries online shopping uses a payment API that takes you to your bank's payment portal where you can review the transaction amount before confirming. It's no longer the 20th century, we're not handing out any card details to online merchants.

Of course all online merchants in Europe take card payment. Some of them also offer payment by bank payment portals, such as you've described. These have zero benefits for the customer.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The odds are very low. It all depents on the people. So far, the European citizens are very privacy senstive. The European institutions are characterized by a huge devision of power. There is no chance that European instutitions can impose their will against a considerable majority of people. If people turn away from liberal democracy, that's another matter. But then everything is lost anyway.

35 years ago, a good chunk of the current EU was under a Soviet-imposed totalitarian rule. Spain was a dictatorship until 1975. And it's been just 80 years since WWII. It always boggles my mind that most Europeans are absolutely convinced that nothing like that could ever happen again. Meanwhile, many people in the US are convinced that the government will be coming for them any minute now.

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Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

What does Belgium's capital has to do with this? Do you imply Brussels = European Union?

This literary device is so common it has a name: synecdoche. e.g. "The pentagon" to refer to the US military.

Now we just need a word for performative dense-ness.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is called a metonymy where you substitute a name that is associated to some other thing instead of mentionning that thing. Some examples: Wall Street = NY Stock Exchange the White House = US president and his cabinet the Pentagon = US Dept of Defense Downing Street = UK prime minister https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy Scotland Yard = Greater London Metropolitan Police Tehran = Government/officials of the isla…

As a person who lived for a long time in a political capital I was so frustrated with news articles titled like this. "[City] decides [XYZ stupid thing]!!!" No! We in the city didn't decide it - our responsibility is limited to our political representative. Everyone else voted in idiots and sent them here to decide idiot things!

This is a common literary device in wide use everywhere. No one is saying that YOU PERSONALLY did something just because you live in a place. Chill out.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#607

I always find it entertaining to hear people try to argue that what these companies do is soooooo difficult and that's why they're valuable. It's just multiple computers keeping a balance. It's not complicated. No, these companies keep themselves in power not because they've solved such a difficult problem that nobody else can, but because they have a moat which they protect. Time to do away with these foreign entiti…

Then the vendors pay 2-4% of credit transactions to the payment processor or shift the cost to consumers. It’s about the cost of another employee in salary per year for restaurants. While many other countries employ pay by QR code which is free.

> While many other countries employ pay by QR code which is free.

In which countries is this service free? Alipay and Wechat are probably the biggest actors in this space both take a cut.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

misuse is not what I mean, I am talking about if your card is stolen and someone runs up a bunch of purchases before it gets caught, that money is gone from your account and any fees from overdrafts are the account holders problem to deal with and stress they can entirely avoid if they did not have/use a card tied directly to their bank account. I pay close attention to my bank account (as it is important for rent/im…

> I am talking about if your card is stolen and someone runs up a bunch of purchases before it gets caught, that money is gone from your account and any fees from overdrafts are the account holders problem to deal with and stress they can entirely avoid if they did not have/use a card tied directly to their bank account Yes that's what I'm talking about too, and it's called misuse. Liability is capped at 50€ as I sai…

US does not always have those proper card safety features (you can use debit cards without pin and online use does not require pin) and banks will fight tooth and nail not to give back overdraft fees (as the overdraft would be from other transactions from the account after the fraud drains an account)

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I replied downthread but I used "value chain" deliberately -- there are lots of intermediaries of which the card networks are just one link in the chain -- and the statement above is about risk being borne (and value being created for consumers) by the entire value chain that is different and difficult/impossible in a FedNow-style immediate settlement model: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46964968

Mastercard and Visa also use immediate settlement models and basically always have done. The settlement buffer between end parties is created entirely by entities that are all basically banks. There’s nothing special about Mastercard and Visa rails that prevents you recreating all the functionality that the broader ecosystem provides, without Visa and Mastercard. Hell all of that functionality could be provided by ex…

Because mastercard/visa don't personally bear any risk they are very happy to process refunds and chargebacks in the customer's favor. It's not a perfect system, but it's much better than direct bank debit where the customer has very little recourse. There is also a significant privacy issue. Today my bank can only see the sum total of my credit card purchases but not what I buy and from which vendor. Amex can see what I purchase but knows very little about me otherwise. I like this separation, and I like that it's hard for the government to get a complete picture of my financial affairs. I know credit cards get a lot of hate (here and elsewhere) but as a consumer I think they're exceptionally convenient.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#610

I always find it entertaining to hear people try to argue that what these companies do is soooooo difficult and that's why they're valuable. It's just multiple computers keeping a balance. It's not complicated. No, these companies keep themselves in power not because they've solved such a difficult problem that nobody else can, but because they have a moat which they protect. Time to do away with these foreign entiti…

>I always find it entertaining to hear people try to argue that what these companies do is soooooo difficult and that's why they're valuable. It's just multiple computers keeping a balance. It's not complicated.

Honestly its a few things.

No, the technical and financial implementation is quite complicated. Its not just a balance in a database.

Yes, they do maintain control through a vertically integrated business structure. But its very easy to justify due to risk management.

>No, these companies keep themselves in power not because they've solved such a difficult problem that nobody else can, but because they have a moat which they protect.

The moat is the difficulty. And they do protect it.

Theres a common type of customer in IT who thinks they can do everything themselves and the "finding out" phase of their shenanigans is often extremely costly, not just for themselves but for their customers.

The chief product of a good supplier is not just software or technical services, its the regimented and disciplined implementation of those services.

Some people will pay more for an IT provider who permits less because they lack the internal organizational discipline to do these things correctly for themselves.

As far as various governments are concerned, the payment card industry is largely self regulating. And that's because the apex card providers provide the balance of enforcement downstream to all the nitwits who would otherwise have to be stung by hundreds of security lapses before they would otherwise respond. The PCI SSC has created an environment where data security is more restrictive than most polity's would require, and its standards are applied worldwide. Often people get liability exemptions for meeting this standard, rather than the standard itself being enforced by legislation or regulation.

Governments honestly love this shit. Its like catnip.

And if you had 1 tiny look behind the curtains of a merchant credit card processor, you would see that they would abandon this level of compliance at the drop of a hat were they permitted. The glue that holds the whole thing together is the restricted access to global Visa and Mastercard payment processing.

If you think all this is trivial, demonstrate how trivial it is, and spin up your own cards, card payment platform, various interconnects and clearing houses. I think you would much more quickly assemble a working computer out of a kids sandpit. Shit I remember a bunch of crypto projects sought to replace Visa and Mastercard, the best we got was Crypto branded Visas and Mastercards.

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