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Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

sintef.no

231–240 of 243 posts

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#231
post #109

It uses phase change (solid to liquid) to store heat at about 200 kJ/kg. Compare this to heating water in a boiler from 10c to 60c - stores 209 kJ/kg. So we already have an effective way to store heat which can work for decades without servicing and is also cheap to produce (in terms of money and energy consumption).

Heat transfer is based on temperature difference, not heat difference. This way ought to reduce heat losses and improve efficiency.

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Heat pumps don’t work well on old, poorly insulated houses in cold climates. If they can keep up, which is a big if, the price of electricity generally dwarfs natural gas, even if the heat pump is running at 250-300% efficiency. I've got a 1930s semi-detached house (UK, north of England) - heated solely by a ASHP for both heating and hot water. Our Seasonal Coefficient of Performance is currently 3.47 (347% efficie…

The issue with poorly insulated houses in cold climates is not about efficiency. The issue is that the thaw cycle makes it impossible to actually come up to temp because too much heat is lost during thawing. Most of the UK isn’t really considered “cold”, which is probably why you don’t have this issue.

Yeah the UK isn't really very 'cold', but figured would include my example to show that not a problem in UK-equivalent of cold climates.

From a quick skim around it appears ASHPs can continue to work at -20c even -30c IF they are units that were designed for cold climate operation, albeit they can't secure the same SCOP/efficiency as they can with warmer temps.

It also looks like homes in these colder areas will often install the ASHP + have some form of additional heating as a back-up (e.g. electric heating) to compensate for the limitations of the ASHP in the coldest weather.

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#233

They should've used lasagna. You could be in a tundra heating it over a fire and, as long as you get it sufficiently and consistently hot, it'll still burn your mouth 20minutes later.

Try Toast Hawaii. The weird mix of ham, pineapple and cheese the Germans make. I am still convinced the lava cheese insulator is there only to burn people's insides with boiling pineapple.

Thanks for the recommendation, I will go out and try this, despite the belief that some people hold about Hawaii Toast giving you cancer[1].

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toast_Hawaii

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#234
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A heat pump gets more heat from a given amount of electricity than if the electricity is use for resistive heating. So the ideal design is solar cell + sodium battery + heat pump.

Also when the temperature differential is lower, so ideal might be solar -> battery (to time shift to warmest outdoor temperature) -> heat pump -> thermal battery (to time shift to when you need heat). Does seem like a lot of added complexity (and likely machinery cost) though.

The question is would it cost less over the long term than any other solution. My intuition is it would, at least for a lot of use cases, but it would need to be put into practice and studied to see if this is actually true.

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#235
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a heat pump only for water isn't the right way to go. In the EU, new systems I see use a single heat pump for all heating and cooling in the house including heating water. I do miss my natural gas on-demand water heater from when I lived in the states though. Unlimited hot water was nice, and it took up almost zero space.

> I do miss my natural gas on-demand water heater from when I lived in the states though. Isn't that what we call a combi boiler in the UK (and Europe?) I've recently moved from having a big hot water cylinder to a combi. The space saving is nice, but there are downsides. Waiting for the hot water to come through is annoying and I'm often just wasting cold water waiting for it to come through hot. There is a "pre-hea…

The natural gas powered Rinnai I had could supply 2 showers and a sink with hot water at the same time just fine. It did take a little longer for hot water to come out the tap beyond the usual flushing the cold water out, though it was not a significant amount of time.

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#236
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes the consumer doesn't know and can't look up the price of the hardware.

The cost of installation vastly exceeds the cost of the hardware. And the installers will only warranty hardware you buy from them.

Yes I agree that labor costs money.

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#237
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are credits that only work if you have owe federal taxes and they cannot be carried forward. I've seen estimates that 40-45% of taxpayers owe 0 or close to 0.

Eh? If you have income you owe taxes, Uncle Sam just takes it before you even see it

They are right, tax credits can't reduce your tax burden below 0 so this incentive does nothing for very low income families.

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the kind of thing government is for, even though it's missing the other half: subsidies. At the very least buying heat pumps for the next 5 years should be tax deductible. Even better: a $2000 or similar rebate.

That's probably exactly what will happen. Energy property - Heat pumps and biomass stoves and boilers Heat pumps that meet or exceed the CEE highest efficiency tier, not including any advanced tier, in effect at the beginning of the year when the property is installed, and biomass stoves and boilers with a thermal efficiency rating of at least 75% qualify for a credit up to $2,000 per year. Costs may include labor fo…

I can't edit it anymore, but I've since learned that Republicans accelerated the expiration on these credits from 2030 to 2025 so they are no longer available. Passed it in the OBBB.

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#239
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also exists, as described in the headline, as a tank of heated water. The phase change stuff has positives like taking up less physical space but it's also a much less mature tech than storing hot water.

You are right in your analogy. Earth's oceans and seas act as giant heat sinks. And that means more trouble as global climate change impacts.. https://www.earth.com/news/ocean-warming-broke-records-for-4...

LOL, now why was this comment downvoted, when it is the truth?!

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#240
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it better to heat the water up to a point (let's say 40 or 50 degrees) and to heat it the rest of the way with resistance heating? >Versus resistance, which is exactly as efficient at 0°C and 1000°C It isn't. The difference is smaller than for a heatpump tho obviously.

1. No, absolutely not. Why would you settle for COP=1 when you can have COP>1? 2. The electrical to heat conversion efficiency is indeed 100% regardless of the temperature of the resistor. And if you're putting out 1000W, then all input losses are also identical. If you put a 1000W light bulb in the middle of your room, or 2 of them but run both at 500W, you'll get EXACTLY the same heat output in your room, but the s…

1. Are there not scenarios where it drops below 1? The stats for them always seem optimistic scenarios given what i hear from people during winter cold spell in houses that aren't absolutely perfectly insulated. If your water term needs to remain above 70C and it's starts freezing hard outside during winter when that COP starts to matter the most for example.
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