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The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

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Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#241

Post by hackyhacky »

sndean wrote: post #233
caseysoftware wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it was never about security at all then, was it? Never was. I flew every other week prior to covid and haven't once been through the scanners. For the first ~6 years, I opted out and got pat down over and over again. Then I realized I could even skip that. Now at the checkpoint, I stand at the metal detector. When they wave me to the scanner, I say "I can't raise my arms over my head." They wave me through the m…

I, too, dislike walking far. Here’s how I faked my way into a handicap parking tag.

> I, too, dislike walking far. Here’s how I faked my way into a handicap parking tag.

Cute analogy, but.

Handicap parking tags provide value to those who need them. Depriving them of parking makes their lives harder.

On the other hand, TSA is pure theater, as TFA makes clear. Avoiding this needless ritual saves time for the passenger, for the TSA officers, even for the other passengers, and does not increase risk at all. It's pure win-win.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#242

Post by Fhch6HQ »

ehasbrouck wrote: post #202
crazygringo wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not millions of people, most people get Real ID. In the context of airport security budgets, it's not that much. And it's used for hiring the additional staff required and putting together the identity verification systems they use.

As of the imposition of start of this new fee/fine, about 200,000 people a day fly without ID or without REAL-ID: https://papersplease.org/wp/2025/05/28/200000-people-a-day-f... - At $45 a pop, that would bring in >$3B a year. "A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money."

That's a really disappointing source. The headline is '200,000 people a day fly without REAL-ID', which starts out quite interesting.

It then goes on to explain that the TSA has reported 93% of traveler's complied with REAL ID, citing a TSA blog from a week prior which in fact states the same.

They then take this and couple it with a single day, which they state was the busiest travel day of the Memorial Day weekend, and extrapolate that 7% of the travelers that day must've failed to provide a REAL ID.

For the sake of conversation, this is a reasonable statement. Going back and using it to suggest 200k fly without it on a typical day is not reasonable, nor is your suggestion that a 6 months later it's still at 7% (or even typical travel volume hasn't changed.) There has to be better data available.

I was curious about this, so I looked up travel volume. YTD the daily average is 2,130,136 passengers. At 7%, this is 149,109.5 passengers or $2.449 B a year in fees. This ignores that you only pay the fee once very 10 days and assumes that all travelers pay the fee on every occurrence.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#243

Post by prashantsengar »

AngryData wrote: post #226
ryanscio wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: why? Most people I know who object to full-body millimeter-wave scanners either do so on pseudoscientific health claims, or “philosophical” anti-scanner objections that are structurally the same genre as sovereign-citizen or First-Amendment-auditor thinking.

I could ask the same serious question, why should I have to? There is zero reason to suspect me of being a suicidal maniac. Should we have such scanners to walk into a busy store or bus or subway system? Why don't private pilots and passengers have such screenings?

Tangential: Here in India we have security guards with hand-held metal detectors in malls, railway stations, and urban transit rails (metro) stations.

The first time I visited a different country I was surprised to see my friend accompany me to the check-in counter and even further to drop me off. In India they wouldn't let you enter the airport if your flight doesn't depart soon enough.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#244

Post by paxys »

deepsun wrote: post #118
BryantD wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am only guessing but I'd be surprised if it was a money grab. My instinct is that it's a way of highlighting RealID citizenship verification.

RealID is unrelated to citizenship. It's a proof of an address, akin to soviet-style "propiska", which was very important and hard to get without (it also affected ownership/inheritance). What's more fun is that even though they accept different types of residence, they mostly trust utility bills -- but to set up utilities on your name even for your personal home utility company will ask a lot of documents, including…

Real ID/Drivers License being a proof of address is laughable. In my state (NY) they accept the following as proof of address for getting a new Real ID:

- Bank statement

- Pay stub

- Utility bill

- Any other state ID with the same last name, which I can claim is my parent or spouse.

I can change my mailing address on any of them with a few clicks online, no actual verification needed.

What they do NOT accept as proof of address:

- My passport

How does that make any sense?

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#245

Post by hackyhacky »

renewiltord wrote: post #173
caseysoftware wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it was never about security at all then, was it? Never was. I flew every other week prior to covid and haven't once been through the scanners. For the first ~6 years, I opted out and got pat down over and over again. Then I realized I could even skip that. Now at the checkpoint, I stand at the metal detector. When they wave me to the scanner, I say "I can't raise my arms over my head." They wave me through the m…

Lots of society is like this. For example, red lights. I run them all the time and nothing happens. You just have to pay attention. It's why the police won't ticket you in SF. It doesn't matter. If anyone else complains you just yell "Am I being detained" a few times and then hit the accelerator. Teslas are fast. They can't catch you.

"Obeying the law, no matter how pointless, wasteful, or destructive, is a virtue."

Does it make you feel good to participate in a meaningless charade of security theater? Or would you rather spend your time doing some of value?

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#246

Post by jacquesm »

avalys wrote: post #228
baubino wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are legit health reasons to opt out of the scanner. I know because I have one of those conditions and have never been through the scanner.

What is an example of such a condition?

Pacemaker, pregnancy, probably others.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#247

Post by hackyhacky »

wpm wrote: post #171
ryanscio wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: why? Most people I know who object to full-body millimeter-wave scanners either do so on pseudoscientific health claims, or “philosophical” anti-scanner objections that are structurally the same genre as sovereign-citizen or First-Amendment-auditor thinking.

I should not need to show an anonymous TSA agent my genitals, even if they are in black and white on some monitor theyre viewing in some back room, to get on a plane.

> I should not need to show an anonymous TSA agent my genitals

Unless you want to!

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#249

Post by hackyhacky »

baubino wrote: post #197
ryanscio wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: why? Most people I know who object to full-body millimeter-wave scanners either do so on pseudoscientific health claims, or “philosophical” anti-scanner objections that are structurally the same genre as sovereign-citizen or First-Amendment-auditor thinking.

There are legit health reasons to opt out of the scanner. I know because I have one of those conditions and have never been through the scanner.

That's fine, but you don't need a health condition, legit or otherwise, to opt out. It's enough to say "I would like to opt out."

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#250

Post by hackyhacky »

paxys wrote: post #244
deepsun wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RealID is unrelated to citizenship. It's a proof of an address, akin to soviet-style "propiska", which was very important and hard to get without (it also affected ownership/inheritance). What's more fun is that even though they accept different types of residence, they mostly trust utility bills -- but to set up utilities on your name even for your personal home utility company will ask a lot of documents, including…

Real ID/Drivers License being a proof of address is laughable. In my state (NY) they accept the following as proof of address for getting a new Real ID: - Bank statement - Pay stub - Utility bill - Any other state ID with the same last name, which I can claim is my parent or spouse. I can change my mailing address on any of them with a few clicks online, no actual verification needed. What they do NOT accept as proof…

> What they do NOT accept as proof of address: > - My passport > How does that make any sense?

It makes sense because, if you look closely, you will see that your passport does not indicate your address.

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