The Great College Hoax • Hacker News Board

Re: The Great College Hoax

#31

Post by BigZaphod » Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 6:09 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #27

BigZaphod wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that, to some degree (har har), it is still accessible to "most." Maybe not "all," but I think of college as a luxury item. The formal education (in the US) that is guaranteed to everyone ends with high school. Why should it extend indefinitely? And why must college be considered a possibility immediately after high school? IMO, we need to insert a cultural cue that hints that it is okay to graduation h…

It should extend to all because we all benefit from a more educated population. Better educated people less likely to elect another Bush, for one, but they're also more likely to end up doing high value jobs, rather than working in a McJob (which, while an honourable duty, isn't exactly on the same level as working for a start-up or a biotechnology firm). Allowing people the opportunity to reach their full potential,…

..but someone has to end up working at McDonald's - and I think it'd probably be better if that person hadn't wasted $80k getting a degree they will never use in a subject they may not even like or really understand and have almost no hope of paying back the loan. We can't have exclusively high paying jobs and expect the economy to survive. Not everyone is cut out for intellectual work that requires a degree nor does everyone see the economic advantage. For instance, today I had to get a quote from a plumber. I doubt he went to college but he's making a damn good living doing something he's good at and providing a service I (and the rest of society) need, want, and will pay for.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#32

Post by swombat » Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 6:30 PM UTC

BigZaphod wrote: post #31

swombat wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should extend to all because we all benefit from a more educated population. Better educated people less likely to elect another Bush, for one, but they're also more likely to end up doing high value jobs, rather than working in a McJob (which, while an honourable duty, isn't exactly on the same level as working for a start-up or a biotechnology firm). Allowing people the opportunity to reach their full potential,…

..but someone has to end up working at McDonald's - and I think it'd probably be better if that person hadn't wasted $80k getting a degree they will never use in a subject they may not even like or really understand and have almost no hope of paying back the loan. We can't have exclusively high paying jobs and expect the economy to survive. Not everyone is cut out for intellectual work that requires a degree nor does…

You said: I think of college as a luxury item. The formal education (in the US) that is guaranteed to everyone ends with high school. Why should it extend indefinitely?

I said: It should extend to all because we all benefit from a more educated population.

Now you say: but someone has to end up working at McDonald's - and I think it'd probably be better if that person hadn't wasted $80k getting a degree they will never use in a subject they may not even like or really understand and have almost no hope of paying back the loan.

I think you're arguing against a strawman. I didn't say people should be shoved into university whether they want it or not. I said people should all have the opportunity to go there, and in a way that won't bankrupt them.

College costs should not be the device by which we filter university admissions. University entrance exams and interviews are a much better tool for that job.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#33

Post by trapper » Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 6:30 PM UTC

unalone wrote: post #14

vaksel wrote: post #3

In this day and age college is worthless. Its pretty much 4 more years of high school, except this time you are paying $40-160K for it. The problem is that most college students deceive themselves. They go to school thinking that all those people who graduate and get $80-100K jobs are the norm, when they aren't. So they get into debt to pay for school, because "its an investment" and then when they graduate they find…

I'm one of the people who thinks there's some worth to being in a place with people who all want to learn. College isn't about money. It's about being open to explore. I'm in a class about religion, another about creative (physical) design, one about interactive multimedia, one about advanced PHP work. Each semester I'm hoping to learn more about things I don't already know much about. It's not about the degree. I ha…

Unfortunately most people aren't in college to learn, at least in the places I have been. I was the one of a tiny minority who was in the library during the holidays for example, or to research non-class materials of interest. Likewise, few if any others stayed to discuss with the lecturer the finer points of the lecture material - often times there are vast simplifications and sometimes gross errors especially in undergraduate life sciences.

Perhaps it's better at places like MIT.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#34

Post by swombat » Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 6:35 PM UTC

edw519 wrote: post #30

You had me right up until "bachelor's degree in history".

To be perfectly honest, I don't see why that should matter. Studying history is no less honourable than studying physics. We need both in our world.

A historian obviously isn't going to be making lots of money later in life, but that doesn't make them worthless. A good education system should allow historians to come out of poor backgrounds too, not force everyone int apparently productive degrees. Hard sciences aren't everything in life.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#35

Post by newt0311 » Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 6:36 PM UTC

Xichekolas wrote: post #29

blankity_blank wrote: post #9

What the hell were the couple in example #1 doing with their $200K income? If they wanted to pay off their debt in 10 years, they'd need about $2800 a month, assuming the rate was the full 12% the whole time. I agree with a lot of the article, but a couple of idiots who pissed away the fruits of their education on too many vacations and fancy cars (obviously not any real investments, otherwise they could have refinan…

I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that. Sadly I know _many_ people that make six figures and complain about things like student debt and credit card debt. One guy claimed he was lower middle class (he was making $110k at the time, with only a wife, who didn't work, to support). If $110k is lower middle class , then I must be in poverty. It's like the idea that they can lower their living standard slight…

Yeah, but college didn't teach them about basic finance!!! Clearly its not their fault.

On a more serious note: It would be nice if some finance education was mandatory. Ex: there is no good reason for having any credit card debt and yet people still have tons. It shows that they don't know how to manage their income even if they have lots to go around.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#36

Post by jwesley » Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 6:43 PM UTC

Xichekolas wrote: post #29

blankity_blank wrote: post #9

What the hell were the couple in example #1 doing with their $200K income? If they wanted to pay off their debt in 10 years, they'd need about $2800 a month, assuming the rate was the full 12% the whole time. I agree with a lot of the article, but a couple of idiots who pissed away the fruits of their education on too many vacations and fancy cars (obviously not any real investments, otherwise they could have refinan…

I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that. Sadly I know _many_ people that make six figures and complain about things like student debt and credit card debt. One guy claimed he was lower middle class (he was making $110k at the time, with only a wife, who didn't work, to support). If $110k is lower middle class , then I must be in poverty. It's like the idea that they can lower their living standard slight…

The lawyer mentioned was clearly a dope. The story said he accepted a loan for over $100K without knowing what the interest rate was or who he was borrowing from. Sure, they might have pressured him (like car dealerships do), but you'd have to be moron to get suckered that bad.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#37

Post by tptacek » Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 6:51 PM UTC

blankity_blank wrote: post #9

What the hell were the couple in example #1 doing with their $200K income? If they wanted to pay off their debt in 10 years, they'd need about $2800 a month, assuming the rate was the full 12% the whole time. I agree with a lot of the article, but a couple of idiots who pissed away the fruits of their education on too many vacations and fancy cars (obviously not any real investments, otherwise they could have refinan…

Uh, even for two people with six-figure salaries --- and speaking from experience here --- two thousand eight hundred dollars a month is a shitload of money. It's a second full-sized house in a nice neighborhood, or the rent on two apartments, or (wait for it) seven BMW 315i car payments.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#38

Post by tptacek » Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 6:54 PM UTC

Xichekolas wrote: post #29

blankity_blank wrote: post #9

What the hell were the couple in example #1 doing with their $200K income? If they wanted to pay off their debt in 10 years, they'd need about $2800 a month, assuming the rate was the full 12% the whole time. I agree with a lot of the article, but a couple of idiots who pissed away the fruits of their education on too many vacations and fancy cars (obviously not any real investments, otherwise they could have refinan…

I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that. Sadly I know _many_ people that make six figures and complain about things like student debt and credit card debt. One guy claimed he was lower middle class (he was making $110k at the time, with only a wife, who didn't work, to support). If $110k is lower middle class , then I must be in poverty. It's like the idea that they can lower their living standard slight…

I don't know about "lower middle class", but in Manhattan and San Francisco, $110k is definitely "bachelor-class". You might not be able to comfortably raise a child, commute from Jersey to Manhattan, and make student loan payments on $110k/yr.

Then you say, "well then don't live in Manhattan", which is probably true-but-not-obvious, but also implies you're going to take a wage cut to work somewhere else. And not everyone is as geographically mobile as a 25 year old hacker.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#39

Post by time_management » Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 7:00 PM UTC

Shutter the bad and mediocre colleges, law schools, and business programs. These diploma mills border on fraud. Most people who think they went to "college" didn't. They were expensively babysat for four years because the job market couldn't figure out what to do with them (and, alas, still can't). The upper-middle tier schools (respectable but not distinguished state schools) shall stay in business but should be half of their current size.

This problem is even more obvious in law school. "California Western School of Law" is not going to provide access to the level of means that most people associate with being a lawyer. These are the schools that law students call TTTs-- third tier toilets-- and the job prospects they provide don't offset the ridiculous debt one takes in order to attend them. A law program loses accreditation if less than 50% of its students fail the bar exam. There are many shitty law schools out there that take on mediocre, doomed students (like, 140 LSAT) and fail many of them in their first year, in order to improve their bar pass rate.

I think it's time to go to an "elitist" European-style system where only qualified students get to go to university and into professional programs, at least with the public schools. Only 5-15% of the population should be getting an academic college education, but it should be free (or very low-cost) for them. No student loans, no parents losing their retirement funds to tuition payments. The other ~85% can go to a private college if they can afford it, as in Europe, but it's not viewed as a universal right.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#40

Post by unalone » Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 7:03 PM UTC

trapper wrote: post #33

unalone wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the people who thinks there's some worth to being in a place with people who all want to learn. College isn't about money. It's about being open to explore. I'm in a class about religion, another about creative (physical) design, one about interactive multimedia, one about advanced PHP work. Each semester I'm hoping to learn more about things I don't already know much about. It's not about the degree. I ha…

Unfortunately most people aren't in college to learn, at least in the places I have been. I was the one of a tiny minority who was in the library during the holidays for example, or to research non-class materials of interest. Likewise, few if any others stayed to discuss with the lecturer the finer points of the lecture material - often times there are vast simplifications and sometimes gross errors especially in un…

That's a problem at TCNJ, too. It's one of the reasons I'd like to get out and work on a real problem for a little while. However, now that my second semester's begun, I'm in an environment with people who're much more interested in actually learning. Not the classwork so much as just things. My roommate and I are going through a work-out program, I might try and record an album with a kid on my floor, we have tons of debates about game design and writing and all sorts of stuff. And the college environment is useful for a lot of that, for finding people who like learning.

The other thing to remember is that chances are you're in the very slim minority of students who enter college with some sort of focus. As much as I'd like to rail against people who don't know what they want to do by the age of 18, it's pretty common. My friend is entering MIT, and he's extremely bright and I'm sure he'll get a lot out of being in a place with other bright people, but if I were in college with him I'd be just as frustrated at him as I am at the people around me who aren't working towards some great goal.

The problem of finding ultrafocused people is a tough one. I was in a program that assembled artists together for a month, and it was absolutely the greatest month of my life and I'm looking for a system that creates the same focus elsewhere. Dunno if other programs like that exist, sadly. Perhaps that's a problem worth solving as well.